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Tur OC 24, how wonderful are tzitzit
Melech
post Mar 24 2008, 01:55 PM
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If you are surrounded by tzitzit, tefillin, and mezuzah you are assured you won't sin. Why davka those three? What do those three have in common?


iy"h tomorrow [tuesday] we move to hilchot Rosh Chodesh, OC 417.
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Moshi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Mar 24 2008, 01:55 PM) *
If you are surrounded by tzitzit, tefillin, and mezuzah you are assured you won't sin. Why davka those three? What do those three have in common?


iy"h tomorrow [tuesday] we move to hilchot Rosh Chodesh, OC 417.


all 3 are mentioned in the shema?


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Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

Why won't my wife let me pee against the fence when we have company for a barbecue? -melech

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Melech
post Mar 24 2008, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:02 PM) *
all 3 are mentioned in the shema?

Could be. But you would have to assume that the third paragraph is an integral part of shema and not an addendum of sorts to satisfy the requirement to remember the exodus. but even if so, why does that make the triad protective from sin?

Personally, I think all three have in common that they surround you, and it's the surrounding that's protective. as opposed to let's say your brit milah that doesn't really surround you. But that's just a guess.
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Moshi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Mar 24 2008, 02:05 PM) *
Could be. But you would have to assume that the third paragraph is an integral part of shema and not an addendum of sorts to satisfy the requirement to remember the exodus. but even if so, why does that make the triad protective from sin?


even if it is an addendum, stll, maybe the fact that it's there goes with this point? (and tziztiz are the key part of that addendum since you have to kiss them). the shema is all about protection for doing mitzvos. (ETA: i.e. the shema says if you do mitzvos, I will make it easier for you to do more mitzvos and to not sin).

QUOTE
Personally, I think all three have in common that they surround you, and it's the surrounding that's protective. as opposed to let's say your brit milah that doesn't really surround you. But that's just a guess.


surrounding = protection?

what about the sukkah?

ETA: how do women protect themselves from sin?


--------------------
Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

Why won't my wife let me pee against the fence when we have company for a barbecue? -melech

~My Blog~
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Melech
post Mar 24 2008, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:08 PM) *
what about the sukkah?

That too, but it's only for a week.

QUOTE
ETA: how do women protect themselves from sin?

I have no idea. Either they can't, or they don't have to, I suppose. Or maybe they bake challah.
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Xi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Mar 24 2008, 02:55 PM) *
If you are surrounded by tzitzit, tefillin, and mezuzah you are assured you won't sin. Why davka those three? What do those three have in common?


iy"h tomorrow [tuesday] we move to hilchot Rosh Chodesh, OC 417.

How does it work? Does it protect from all sin (bmeizid and bshogeg)? What happens to Free Will?


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it's not that h has gotten boring. it's that we've become more jaded. bring the luster back in. polish your souls. learn to enjoy again. --int999 (ok, ok, I concede!)
this forum has been taken over by a bunch of punk kids who are pseudo-intellectual wannabe's with a chip on thier shoulder because they think they are frum, when they have no idea on what it means to be a True-Torah Jew. --adiel
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Moshi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Xi @ Mar 24 2008, 02:11 PM) *
How does it work? Does it protect from all sin (bmeizid and bshogeg)? What happens to Free Will?


Isn't that what you ask for every morning in davening?


--------------------
Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

Why won't my wife let me pee against the fence when we have company for a barbecue? -melech

~My Blog~
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Xi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:12 PM) *
Isn't that what you ask for every morning in davening?

I was thinking of that thread too (and the other one, about sin and Moshiach). So does it protect one from coming into a makom nisayon?
My personal take is that it serves as a reminder, and keeps people from entering places of sin (libraries or YU McDonald's or KFC), but how is that a guarantee? If one surrounds himself with the triad in order to test it, and then picks up a book cheeseburger, will he suddenly faint or drop it or otherwise be prevented from sin?


--------------------
it's not that h has gotten boring. it's that we've become more jaded. bring the luster back in. polish your souls. learn to enjoy again. --int999 (ok, ok, I concede!)
this forum has been taken over by a bunch of punk kids who are pseudo-intellectual wannabe's with a chip on thier shoulder because they think they are frum, when they have no idea on what it means to be a True-Torah Jew. --adiel
Why do your own thinking when someone you like has done it for you already? --Moshi
I'm putting my money on Xi. --Rachel8
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Melech
post Mar 24 2008, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:08 PM) *
surrounding = protection?

Yeah. Anyway, the Tur cites two verses [this is all from Menachot 43b] and it seems the key is that these are things that surround you:

R. Eliezer b. Jacob said, Whosoever has the tefillin on his head, the tefillin on his arm, the zizith on his garment, and the mezuzah on his doorpost, is in absolute security against sinning, for it is written, And a threefold cord is not quickly broken; and it is also written, The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear Him, and delivereth them.
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Kalashnikover_Re...
post Mar 24 2008, 02:17 PM
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Is that why MO tuck their tzitzis in???


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Moshi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Xi @ Mar 24 2008, 02:16 PM) *
I was thinking of that thread too (and the other one, about sin and Moshiach). So does it protect one from coming into a makom nisayon?
My personal take is that it serves as a reminder, and keeps people from entering places of sin (libraries or YU McDonald's or KFC), but how is that a guarantee? If one surrounds himself with the triad in order to test it, and then picks up a book cheeseburger, will he suddenly faint or drop it or otherwise be prevented from sin?


I don't think it means that these objects have supernatural powers beyond the reminders they provide...


--------------------
Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

Why won't my wife let me pee against the fence when we have company for a barbecue? -melech

~My Blog~
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Xi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:22 PM) *
I don't think it means that these objects have supernatural powers beyond the reminders they provide...

So why call them an absolute security?


--------------------
it's not that h has gotten boring. it's that we've become more jaded. bring the luster back in. polish your souls. learn to enjoy again. --int999 (ok, ok, I concede!)
this forum has been taken over by a bunch of punk kids who are pseudo-intellectual wannabe's with a chip on thier shoulder because they think they are frum, when they have no idea on what it means to be a True-Torah Jew. --adiel
Why do your own thinking when someone you like has done it for you already? --Moshi
I'm putting my money on Xi. --Rachel8
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Melech
post Mar 24 2008, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:22 PM) *
I don't think it means that these objects have supernatural powers beyond the reminders they provide...

hmm...I do. Or at least I think that's the belief, that they are supernaturally protective from supernatural things like mazikin. The term is apotropaic. And that's tied in to being "surrounded". Circling and surrounding is commonly done to ward off malevolent spirits. Think the kallah circling the bride, for instance. Mezuzah for sure, without a doubt. Tefillin also - they were also seen as warding off things like sheidim [take your shel yad off first, before your shel rosh, and know what you're left with? the shin and the dalet = sheid, and hence we take off the shel rosh first]. Or maybe I'm reading too much into this.
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Moshi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Mar 24 2008, 02:31 PM) *
[take your shel yad off first, before your shel rosh, and know what you're left with? the shin and the dalet = sheid, and hence we take off the shel rosh first].


cool!


--------------------
Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

Why won't my wife let me pee against the fence when we have company for a barbecue? -melech

~My Blog~
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Xi
post Mar 24 2008, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Mar 24 2008, 03:31 PM) *
hmm...I do. Or at least I think that's the belief, that they are supernaturally protective from supernatural things like mazikin. The term is apotropaic. And that's tied in to being "surrounded". Circling and surrounding is commonly done to ward off malevolent spirits. Think the kallah circling the bride, for instance. Mezuzah for sure, without a doubt. Tefillin also - they were also seen as warding off things like sheidim [take your shel yad off first, before your shel rosh, and know what you're left with? the shin and the dalet = sheid, and hence we take off the shel rosh first]. Or maybe I'm reading too much into this.

[random]
So women's heads are shaved to ward off evil?
[/random]


--------------------
it's not that h has gotten boring. it's that we've become more jaded. bring the luster back in. polish your souls. learn to enjoy again. --int999 (ok, ok, I concede!)
this forum has been taken over by a bunch of punk kids who are pseudo-intellectual wannabe's with a chip on thier shoulder because they think they are frum, when they have no idea on what it means to be a True-Torah Jew. --adiel
Why do your own thinking when someone you like has done it for you already? --Moshi
I'm putting my money on Xi. --Rachel8
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Melech
post Mar 24 2008, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Mar 24 2008, 03:33 PM) *
cool!

Chazal derive the rule about the order of placing and removing the tefillin from an exegesis of the scriptural verses, but still, there's the "protection from sheidim" school of thought among the rishonim as well.
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