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Pas Tzenumah BeKaarah -Brachos 39a
Gabbe
post Apr 28 2008, 10:11 PM
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Papier schreiben und sonstige Sachen als ersetzung für den geile
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QUOTE
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בעי רב פפא מיא דשיבתא מאי למתוקי טעמא עבדי או לעבורי זוהמא עבדי לה ת"ש השבת משנתנה טעם בקדירה אין בה משום תרומה ואינה מטמאה טומאת אוכלים שמע מינה למתוקי טעמא עבדי לה שמע מינה

אמר רב חייא בר אשי פת צנומה בקערה מברכין עליה המוציא ופליגא דר' חייא דאמר ר' חייא צריך שתכלה ברכה עם הפת מתקיף לה רבא מאי שנא צנומה דלא משום דכי כליא ברכה אפרוסה קא כליא על הפת נמי כי קא גמרה אפרוסה גמרה

The problems with the second paragraph are obvious (and discussed by the Rishonim, eg, Tosafos): First, what chiddush is there in telling me I make hamotzi on pas tzenumah*? We already know from 37 that I make hamotzi on crumbs.

Second, what is the hemshech of the Gemara? How is the fact that we have to finish hamotzi while we cut the bread a contradiction to the fact that we make a hamotzi on reconstituted crumbs?

The Rishonim™ answer that we are really discussing a person who has a choice between making hamotzi on tzenumah or sheleimah. RChBA says that if the tzenumah is chavivah, you make a bracha on it, and not the sheleimah. The Gemara says that this would seem to argue on RCh who says you need to finish the bracha with the breaking of the bread.

My questions are:
  1. This is very ex post facto. The Gemara does not mention another loaf, and additionally, the way it reads seems to tell us a din in hamotzi, not priority in brachos. (מברכין עליה המוציא as opposed to just מברכין עליה)
  2. Why would the Gemara just assume that finishing the bracha while breaking the bread trumps the din of chaviv?




*dried bread which has been made into crumbs and then soaked to make edible

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טוב להתלונן מחר מלעשות משהו היום
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Dan
post Apr 29 2008, 04:26 AM
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I will bli neder answer you when I get home (Wednesday morning).. kinda hectic around here now


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Dan
post Apr 30 2008, 05:04 PM
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[sorry for double post]

OK, I actually don't know the answer. But check Biur Hagra siman 204 sif katan 11 (at the end). and also biur hagra siman 168 sif katan 33. [both in OC].


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