Praying in a Cemetery, Should it be done, and how? |
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Praying in a Cemetery, Should it be done, and how? |
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Jun 29 2008, 10:06 PM
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#1
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And they went up by the South and he arrived at Chevron. Shouldn’t the Torah have stated: and they arrived at Chevron? Rava said: It teaches us that Calev separated himself from the plan of the spies and went and prostrated himself upon the graves of the Patriarchs, saying to them, “My fathers, pray for mercy on my behalf that I may be spared from the plan of the spies.”
The Gemora in Taanis (16a) states that it was the custom to visit a cemetery on a fast day. One reason given is that the Jewish people were saying that they consider themselves like corpses and this will stimulate them to repent. Another reason is that this will enable the deceased who are buried in the cemetery to pray for them. According to the second reason, they would not visit a cemetery that contained the graves of gentiles. The Ritva writes that they didn’t go to the cemetery in order to daven there because that is forbidden on the account of “loeg lerosh” – it is considered mocking to the dead who cannot perform the mitzvos; rather they davened in the streets and went to the cemetery afterwards. The Ran adds that they did not take the sefer Torah with them when they went to the cemetery. The Noda B’yehuda (O”C 2:109) was asked on a year that there was no rain and there was tremendous suffering; if they would be permitted to go to a cemetery with a sefer Torah and daven there for rain. He cites a Zohar (Acharei Mos) which states that davening by a cemetery inspires the souls of those buried there to inform those that are buried in Chevron (Patriarchs and the Matriarchs) who subsequently will arouse Hashem’s compassion. However, there is a Gemora in Brochos (18a) which rules that a person should not enter a cemetery with tefillin on his head or read from a sefer Torah in his arm. We can infer from this Gemora that reading from the sefer Torah is forbidden but holding it would be permitted. The Kesef Mishna in Hilchos Sefer Torah (10:6) learns that both are forbidden; reading from the sefer Torah or holding it. The Noda B’yehuda concludes that although he is not an expert in the hidden portions of Torah, the Zohar cited does warn against bringing a sefer Torah that might be missing letters into a cemetery since this can cause terrible consequences. The sefer Igra D’taanisa wonders why the Noda B’yehuda makes no mention of the Gemora in Taanis, which would indicate that one can go daven by a cemetery. The Minchas Elozar discusses the permissibility of people davening by Kever Rochel. Some say that we are not mocking Rochel since she was living before the Torah was given; she was never obligated in mitzvos. The Netziv rules that in his days, it would be permitted because the custom was to bury them deeper than ten tefachim from the ground and it is considered like a different domain. The Rama (O”C 581:4) writes that there are places that have the custom to go to cemeteries on Erev Rosh Hashanah and to recite lengthy Tefillos there. The Chidah asks on this Rama from the Ritva in Taanis that states explicitly that one should not daven in the cemetery. There are those that create a distinction between a compulsory tefillah and a tefillah which is only voluntary. The Elya Rabbah (581) quotes from the Maharil that one should be careful when going to the graves of Tzadikim that your tefillos should not be directed towards those that are buried there, rather one should daven to Hashem and ask for compassion in the merit of these Tzadikim. Some say that you can ask the dead to be an advocate on your behalf. The Bach (Y”D 217) rules that it is forbidden to daven to the dead because of the prohibition of being “doresh el hameisim.” He points out that even though we find that Calev did daven in Chevron by the Meoras Hamachpeila, he wasn't davening to the Avos. Rather, since a cemetery is a place of holiness and purity, the tefillos davened there will be more readily accepted. |
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Jun 29 2008, 10:11 PM
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#2
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1. Is this your work?
2. Can the dead pray? 3. I like your SN. -------------------- "If they would allow one dead soul to visit an assembly of philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings."
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Jun 29 2008, 10:19 PM
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#3
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Thank you. Very interesting piece. I'm not sure how your 'pshetel' asks the topic question though.
I always wondered (and I asked this previously), why is it special to daven in someone's kever if the only thing there is the mes's body which contains nothing spiritual or Godly. We don't believe the neshama stays there, and you can't say that's the last place the neshama was on earth either. Is there really a power to daven by a kever? Or is it more for us to be able to pinpoint a special place where we can daven in the zchus for the aliyah of a neshama, or try to ask for 'help' from the niftar it the olam haemes? -------------------- www.adiel.com Sukkos fun!
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Jun 29 2008, 10:20 PM
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#4
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-------------------- If I don't write to empty my mind, I go mad. ~Lord Byron |
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Jul 11 2008, 04:55 AM
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2. Can the dead pray? The dead can't perform any Mitzvos, thats also a reason why at graves we tuck in our tzitzis as we don't want to mock them. Neshomas do daven, everyday they say the holy words of Kadosh Kadosh...and keep ascending in spirituality and Gan Eden etc.. But thats a topic for another -------------------- *This space for rent*
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Jul 12 2008, 10:32 PM
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#6
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Group: Members Posts: 13,052 Joined: 23-May 05 From: Tipah Sirucha Member No.: 1,516 |
The dead can't perform any Mitzvos, thats also a reason why at graves we tuck in our tzitzis as we don't want to mock them. If they can see through the ground, why cant they see through our pants? 9 -------------------- "Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko." - soapmaker " He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius " When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama " I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere "A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun". Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you. OFF SAVING THE WORLD |
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Jul 12 2008, 10:37 PM
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#7
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The dead can't perform any Mitzvos, thats also a reason why at graves we tuck in our tzitzis as we don't want to mock them. Neshomas do daven, everyday they say the holy words of Kadosh Kadosh...and keep ascending in spirituality and Gan Eden etc.. But thats a topic for another Thank you. So they can do "Tefilla" but not "bakasha" or "hoda'ah"? -------------------- "If they would allow one dead soul to visit an assembly of philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings."
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Jul 12 2008, 11:13 PM
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#8
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Group: Members Posts: 1,808 Joined: 21-June 06 From: Southern boy trapped in NYC Member No.: 2,898 |
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Jul 12 2008, 11:14 PM
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#9
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Group: Members Posts: 13,052 Joined: 23-May 05 From: Tipah Sirucha Member No.: 1,516 |
This is an excellent question. I think we should contact the gedolim of the generation with this one. I did. 9 -------------------- "Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko." - soapmaker " He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius " When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama " I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere "A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun". Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you. OFF SAVING THE WORLD |
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Jul 12 2008, 11:25 PM
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#10
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Group: Members Posts: 16,980 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
You mean you don't wear your foil undies when you go to the cemetery??? -------------------- [/flirting]
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Jul 12 2008, 11:27 PM
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#11
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Group: Members Posts: 13,052 Joined: 23-May 05 From: Tipah Sirucha Member No.: 1,516 |
You mean you don't wear your foil undies when you go to the cemetery??? They are reserved for special occasions like shabbos and yom tov. If I wore them every time I went to the cemetary, what special undies could I wear on shabbos? 9 -------------------- "Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko." - soapmaker " He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius " When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama " I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere "A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun". Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you. OFF SAVING THE WORLD |
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Jul 12 2008, 11:29 PM
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#12
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Group: Members Posts: 16,980 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
They are reserved for special occasions like shabbos and yom tov. If I wore them every time I went to the cemetary, what special undies could I wear on shabbos? 9 Why do you need foil undies on Shabbos??? Your Neshoma Yesera??? -------------------- [/flirting]
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Jul 12 2008, 11:32 PM
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#13
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Group: Members Posts: 13,052 Joined: 23-May 05 From: Tipah Sirucha Member No.: 1,516 |
Why do you need foil undies on Shabbos??? Your Neshoma Yesera??? They are my special shabbos undies that look all shiny and shabbosdig. 9 -------------------- "Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko." - soapmaker " He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius " When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama " I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere "A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun". Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you. OFF SAVING THE WORLD |
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Jul 13 2008, 03:15 AM
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#14
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If they can see through the ground, why cant they see through our pants? The reason is not to flaunt the fact we can do Mitzvos while they can't so we try and hide it. Yes in Olam ha'emes nothing is hidden but kacha ia Halocha -------------------- *This space for rent*
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Jul 13 2008, 03:17 AM
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#15
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Thank you. So they can do "Tefilla" but not "bakasha" or "hoda'ah"? To a certain degree they can do bakosha, many tales of Tzadikim calling the neshoma of a Tzadik already in olam ha'emes and asking them to help the situation. What would they say hoda'ah for as they are in Olam Ha'Emes? -------------------- *This space for rent*
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Jul 13 2008, 03:25 AM
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#16
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Group: Members Posts: 13,052 Joined: 23-May 05 From: Tipah Sirucha Member No.: 1,516 |
The reason is not to flaunt the fact we can do Mitzvos while they can't so we try and hide it. Yes in Olam ha'emes nothing is hidden but kacha ia Halocha A rabbi I heard once tried suggesting (jokingly I think) that the reason wasnt because they can see it, but that once you tuck the tzitzis in, you are no l |