Reply to this topicStart new topic
Continuing Eating After Bentching
notreallyhere
post Jul 22 2008, 12:51 PM
Post #1


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2,401
Joined: 30-January 05
Member No.: 1,089


Do I make a new brocha on my drink if I continue drinking after I bentch?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WaldoinGalus
post Jul 22 2008, 12:53 PM
Post #2


Newbie
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 77
Joined: 4-March 08
From: Minneapolis, Mn
Member No.: 7,138


Yes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rachel b.
post Jul 22 2008, 01:18 PM
Post #3


Gabbai
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 739
Joined: 26-January 06
From: chicago, il
Member No.: 2,285


Not if you had in mind that you were going to do that when you bentched.


--------------------
Make aliyah, and live in the country where your forefathers walked.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notreallyhere
post Jul 22 2008, 02:27 PM
Post #4


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2,401
Joined: 30-January 05
Member No.: 1,089


What about if the drink was never a part of the meal? For example: I take a cup of water when I get to work. Then I eat lunch. Then I continue drinking. Does the brocha I made in the morning apply throughout the day?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Jul 22 2008, 02:36 PM
Post #5



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


QUOTE (notreallyhere @ Jul 22 2008, 03:27 PM) *
What about if the drink was never a part of the meal? For example: I take a cup of water when I get to work. Then I eat lunch. Then I continue drinking. Does the brocha I made in the morning apply throughout the day?

R. Bodner says:
QUOTE
Even if the same type of food will subsequently be served at the meal, nevertheless, since the food was eaten before he startred the meal, a brocha achrona is required.


That is to say, the issue is that bentching doesn't cover snacks eaten before a meal [eg. picking at food before lunch is served], so you need to say a berachah acharonah. And then you start fresh with the meal.
However, he lists a number of exceptions to that general rule. For example, if you make kiddush for your younger brother, you neither say a berachah me-ein shalosh before washing nor do you say a new al ha-gafen during the meal. He also notes your specific question about drinks about which there is a machloket and therefore says:
QUOTE
The Poskim advise, therefore, that if one wishes to drink while waiting to start the meal, he should drink less than the shiur requred for a brachah achronah.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Elana
post Jul 22 2008, 02:36 PM
Post #6


Godol Hador
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 7,224
Joined: 26-April 04
Member No.: 486


QUOTE (notreallyhere @ Jul 22 2008, 03:27 PM) *
I take a cup of water when I get to work. Then I eat lunch. Then I continue drinking. Does the brocha I made in the morning apply throughout the day?


ah, that's a bit different than the OP.

why would it apply throughout the day? if come take a drink in teh morning at home, doess that brocha apply throughout the say, if you are home the whole day?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Jul 23 2008, 08:48 AM
Post #7



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


QUOTE
QUOTE
What about if the drink was never a part of the meal? For example: I take a cup of water when I get to work. Then I eat lunch. Then I continue drinking. Does the brocha I made in the morning apply throughout the day?


R. Bodner says:

QUOTE
Even if the same type of food will subsequently be served at the meal, nevertheless, since the food was eaten before he startred the meal, a brocha achrona is required.



That is to say, the issue is that bentching doesn't cover snacks eaten before a meal [eg. picking at food before lunch is served], so you need to say a berachah acharonah. And then you start fresh with the meal.
However, he lists a number of exceptions to that general rule. For example, if you make kiddush for your younger brother, you neither say a berachah me-ein shalosh before washing nor do you say a new ha-gafen during the meal. He also notes your specific question about drinks about which there is a machloket and therefore says:

QUOTE
The Poskim advise, therefore, that if one wishes to drink while waiting to start the meal, he should drink less than the shiur requred for a brachah achronah.


Edited to add:
I should add that of course making a berachah in the morning to apply throughout the day depends on whether there was a hefsek such as a shinui makom. If there was a hefsek such as a shinui makom, all bets are off anyway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notreallyhere
post Jul 23 2008, 12:44 PM
Post #8


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2,401
Joined: 30-January 05
Member No.: 1,089


Okay, there are two situations here.

1. This happens more often. I take a cup of water when I get to work. That cup stays on my desk and gets refilled throughout the day. Somewhere in the middle, I (hopefully) eat lunch. On occasion, I wash and bentch. So where does my cup of water fit into that?

2. This happened yesterday but barely ever happens. I took a cup of water when I got to work. Then I washed for lunch and took a can of Sprite Zero to accompany it. After bentching, I still had some Sprite Zero left, plus I still had my cup of water.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
accolade
post Jul 24 2008, 05:33 PM
Post #9


[mystified]
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 8,081
Joined: 8-February 05
From: עמק הבכא
Member No.: 1,113


QUOTE (notreallyhere @ Jul 23 2008, 01:44 PM) *
1. This happens more often. I take a cup of water when I get to work. That cup stays on my desk and gets refilled throughout the day. Somewhere in the middle, I (hopefully) eat lunch. On occasion, I wash and bentch. So where does my cup of water fit into that?

When I asked my rabbi that (minus the part about bentching in middle), he was hard pressed to give a concrete answer. The best I understood, if you're continually drinking, don't make another bracha. If there was a hefsek (one potential definition being that you forgot the water was there), do.

Edit: On a somewhat related note, I have a problem when I've eaten a particularly good fruit. I want to make a bracha acharona in appreciation for the fruit but I'm still drinking so I don't. However, I know I'm going to be drinking for hours after finishing the fruit. Basically, I know I can't make a bracha acharona on the fruit. It's sad.


--------------------
דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 17 2008, 11:56 AM
Post #10



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


I asked a rosh kollel. His reply was that bentching is a hefsek. One can't have in mind to exclude one's Sprite or ice cream from being included in the bentching. Once you bentch, it's a hefsek, and if you continue drinking or eating after bentching then one necessarily need a new berachah rishonah regardless of your intentions during bentching.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kalashnikover_Re...
post Aug 17 2008, 12:00 PM
Post #11


Disgustingly Insensitive
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 16,979
Joined: 9-February 04
From: Occupied Palestine
Member No.: 407


QUOTE (melech @ Aug 17 2008, 12:56 PM) *
I asked a rosh kollel. His reply was that bentching is a hefsek. One can't have in mind to exclude one's Sprite or ice cream from being included in the bentching. Once you bentch, it's a hefsek, and if you continue drinking or eating after bentching then you necessarily need a new berachah rishonah regardless of your intentions during bentching.

Interesting...

What if it is not "bentching" but an after brocha. So you make al hamichya on the twizzlers, but not borei nefashos on the coke zero???

There's also an curious minhag Chabad on the 2nd day of RH to eat a fruit after kiddush to make shehechayanu, (which is often one of the 7 minim) and there you CAN'T say al hagafen along with the after borcha fruit because then you lose kidush b'makom seudah, so it seems as if sometimes you CAN split the brocha achrona.......


--------------------
[/flirting]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 17 2008, 12:09 PM
Post #12



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Aug 17 2008, 01:00 PM) *
Interesting...

What if it is not "bentching" but an after brocha. So you make al hamichya on the twizzlers, but not borei nefashos on the coke zero???

I don't know. I would guess that you could continue with the Coke Zero after the al hamichyah without a new she-ha-kol on the Coke Zero. What say you?

QUOTE
There's also an curious minhag Chabad on the 2nd day of RH to eat a fruit after kiddush to make shehechayanu, (which is often one of the 7 minim) and there you CAN'T say al hagafen along with the after borcha fruit because then you lose kidush b'makom seudah, so it seems as if sometimes you CAN split the brocha achrona.......

Interesting. But there bentching includes the kiddush since kiddush is tied to the se'udah, but bentching doesn't necessarily exempt the fruit. If you don't say an al ha-eitz before you wash for bread, you may need to say a separate al ha-eitz after bentching to exempt the fruit which was not included in bentching, and which was not included in bentching because it wasn't part of the meal, and wasn't even part of the pre-meal kiddush.

It's the same issue if you pick at the food before your meal while you're preparing it, like if you eat some tuna and cucumber while preparing it before you wash, if bentching later covers that pre-meal snack.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kalashnikover_Re...
post Aug 17 2008, 12:22 PM
Post #13


Disgustingly Insensitive
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 16,979
Joined: 9-February 04
From: Occupied Palestine
Member No.: 407


QUOTE (melech @ Aug 17 2008, 01:09 PM) *
I don't know. I would guess that you could continue with the Coke Zero after the al hamichyah without a new she-ha-kol on the Coke Zero. What say you?

I would guess so too, but what about the "hefsek"??? Why is Bentching a hefsek but not al hamichya???


QUOTE
Interesting. But there bentching includes the kiddush since kiddush is tied to the se'udah, but bentching doesn't necessarily exempt the fruit. If you don't say an al ha-eitz before you wash for bread, you may need to say a separate al ha-eitz after bentching to exempt the fruit which was not included in bentching, and which was not included in bentching because it wasn't part of the meal, and wasn't even part of the pre-meal kiddush.

It's the same issue if you pick at the food before your meal while you're preparing it, like if you eat some tuna and cucumber while preparing it before you wash, if bentching later covers that pre-meal snack.

I understand the reasoning and it makes sense, but if "hefsek" is the issue, I don't see how any of the above is relevant.....


--------------------
[/flirting]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 17 2008, 12:25 PM
Post #14



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Aug 17 2008, 01:22 PM) *
I would guess so too, but what about the "hefsek"??? Why is Bentching a hefsek but not al hamichya???



I understand the reasoning and it makes sense, but if "hefsek" is the issue, I don't see how any of the above is relevant.....

I would answer: Your berachah is a hefsek on whatever it covers, or can cover. You can't exclude anything. So bentching covers your Sprite and ice cream, and you can't exclude it.
But al hamichyah doesn't cover your Coke Zero, so you can exclude it - you are intending to stop eating your grain product, so you say al hamichyah, but that has not relevance to your borei nefashot foods.


You are making a hefsek on whatever is necessarily covered by the after-berachah in question.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 17 2008, 03:06 PM
Post #15



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


A rabbinic personage just called [not to speak to me, of course; for my wife] so I cornered him and asked him:
He agreed that bencthing is a hefsek and you can't have in mind to exclude your Sprite to continue drinking after bentching without a new berachah rishonah.
As for eating cake and ice cream, and saying al hamichya but continuing to eat the ice cream, he said it's ok to do that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kalashnikover_Re...
post Aug 17 2008, 07:19 PM
Post #16


Disgustingly Insensitive
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 16,979
Joined: 9-February 04
From: Occupied Palestine
Member No.: 407


QUOTE (melech @ Aug 17 2008, 04:06 PM) *
A rabbinic personage just called [not to speak to me, of course; for my wife] so I cornered him and asked him:
He agreed that bencthing is a hefsek and you can't have in mind to exclude your Sprite to continue drinking after bentching without a new berachah rishonah.
As for eating cake and ice cream, and saying al hamichya but continuing to eat the ice cream, he said it's ok to do that.

Interesting, I just don't get why it's a "hefsek", or why you even need to come to that line of reasoning. If you want to say it is gemiras daas not to eat anymore I could understand that (even if YOU decide in your mind that it isn't), but a hefsek seems like a stretch.....


--------------------
[/flirting]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 18 2008, 05:19 AM
Post #17



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,496
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Aug 17 2008, 08:19 PM) *
Interesting, I just don't get why it's a "hefsek", or why you even need to come to that line of reasoning. If you want to say it is gemiras daas not to eat anymore I could understand that (even if YOU decide in your mind that it isn't), but a hefsek seems like a stretch.....

I think that's the same thing: it's a hefsek because it's a gemirat da'at not to eat anymore.