What was the nusach hatfilah during the second bais hamikdash? Does anyone know of sforim or academic article that deal with this question? Does anyone know of a Romaniote siddur?
Thanks

http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums/5th/tabory00.html

For a start. As I understand it, nuschaos weren't solidified until the time of the gaomin.

I'm not sure if the Romaniote (Greek/Slavic) nusah is still in circulation, or if there are any siddurim in print. You could, perhaps, try searching Shemaria Judaica. I do have a siddur according to the Italo-Roman rite (Mahazor lekol Shana kefi minhag Bene Roma) from 1853 with the commentary of Shadal on the tefilloth. If you had a question regarding the nusah, I could probably reference it for you when I get home.

IIRC the Romaniotes use Greek and have a nusach completely unrelated to any nusach used by any other community. In NY you could try to visit their shul in the Lower East Side which is also a museum. I think it's the only Romaniote kehila outside of Greece.

ETA: IIRC the first nusach hatefillah was redacted by Shimon Hapekuli under comission from Raban Gamliel around the time of the churban, so before this there was no established nusach. (for shmone esrei)

Kehilla Kedosha Yanina, si?

Si

http://www.kkjsm.org/

Hi Motcha- more stuff (by the way, I've always wondered about the exact time frame as well!)

Chapters 8 and 9 are useful.

theres a romaniote shul in manhatten they daven nusah al pi hashmonayim lol seriously tho they where seriously hellenized, thankfully the majority of greeks switched to Sepharadi when the Spanish jews came there, so only a minority davened that circumsized nusach

shemmy מי אמיגו מי חבר we both know Italki nusach is a fancy way of saying Western ashkenazi with Western Sephardic pronunciation and Conservative influence (sheasani kirtsono,sheasani israel)

actually in all seriousness though Italki is essentially an odd variant of Western Ashkenaz(or the other way around) with a Western sephardic pronunciation ie Ngayins galore, and JTS was founded by an Italian sphard(who was familiar with italki service) its origional intention was a kiruv org, later some of these things where borrowed in the censorship of their siddurim.

my fave nusach is Nusach Nigeria (basically they chose to modify Sephardic ritual which they said made more sense than ashkenazi and afrofy Conservative ashkenazi nigunim)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJDo4U3Ln_k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-cBOjP1kow Shame on the white jew for taping this he should know better, i have that same kippa btw

I beg to differ with you there, querido. I find nusak Bene Roma closer to that of the Spanish-Portuguese than that of the Ashkenazim (granted, I don't have access to a pre-homogenized Western Ashkenaz siddur).

The use of she'asani Israel isn't all that odd, either. What is, though, happens to be Haham Menasseh b. Israel's preference for she'asani Yehudi in his orden dos tefilloth.

Let's see. There's several different minhagim in Italy including the Minhag Bene Romi. They are very old, probably older than both nusach Ashkenaz and nusach haSefardim, and quite different. For one thing, the kedusha's nusach is Keser even for shachris iirc.
To say that minhag bene romi has Conservative influence is a major anachronism. The "sheasani israel" nusach is quite old.

It's a separate havarah as well. Again iirc, the ת is pronounced like a D.

its not an anachronism didnt you see the smily face? later i explained that the reason Conservatives have it is italki influence, and as for "there are several minhagim in italy" nu...........theres several minhagim in brooklyn but we are talking about ITALKIM (bnei roma if u prefer to call em that)

Tav in S&P was often pronounced like the final d in madrid

Voiced dental fricative, that "D" in Madrid (just in case people are saying the word with an American accent)

You guys are writting great stuff. Thanks. I'm a reference intern in a Sephardic library and thats why I'm researching this. It seems there are Romaniote shulls in the world. 2 in Greece, 1 in NY, and 1 in Israel. I read on a blog that the NY one uses regular nusach Sephardit. However, I did read that untill the Hollocaust, the unique Romaniote nusach was used in Grece. I have an email contact. I also found some email contacts of professors who specialise in Romaniote Jews or liturgy. The person who wrote me a letter wants to know what the nusach by Bayit Sheni was. He feels that since the Romaniote are so aincent they'd be closest to that nusach. I know you, Shemmy, would probably feel the Yemenite nusach is the most reliable.
The sheasani Yisroel is interesting as are other things you guys are raising. Later tonight I will read the articles you linked me to.
Thanks.

Romaniote is universally(in most books ive read) said to simultaneously be the most Ancient and Yet Hellenized(and in this case LITERALLY!)