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Palestinian refugees
Jeanette
post Aug 6 2008, 02:50 PM
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Is there any possible solution to the Palestinian refugee problem that does NOT involve resettling millions of Palestinians within Israel? What is your opinion on the validity of their claims? Why are they being forced to stay in camps m'dor l'dor instead of being allowed to build lives elsewhere (elsewhere excluding Israel)?
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bigtoe
post Aug 6 2008, 02:53 PM
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No other country wants them. Forced is too strong of a word. They can't take initiative on their own and [even as they freely admit this among themselves] are too lazy to build and uphold a nice, democratic place to live. If they can hop the fence and have babies/get shrapnel from their own bombs removed in Israeli hospitals, why build their own??


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RebPropagandist
post Aug 6 2008, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (bigtoe @ Aug 6 2008, 07:53 AM) *
No other country wants them. Forced is too strong of a word. They can't take initiative on their own and [even as they freely admit this among themselves] are too lazy to build and uphold a nice, democratic place to live. If they can hop the fence and have babies/get shrapnel from their own bombs removed in Israeli hospitals, why build their own??

What a skewered view of justice you seem to have.


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bigtoe
post Aug 6 2008, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (RebPropagandist @ Aug 6 2008, 04:00 PM) *
What a skewered view of justice you seem to have.

Who mentioned justice anywhere?


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krumlikeapretzel
post Aug 6 2008, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (bigtoe @ Aug 6 2008, 01:53 PM) *
No other country wants them. Forced is too strong of a word. They can't take initiative on their own and [even as they freely admit this among themselves] are too lazy to build and uphold a nice, democratic place to live. If they can hop the fence and have babies/get shrapnel from their own bombs removed in Israeli hospitals, why build their own??
Wow. You really hate them, don't you.
They are being forced to live in refugee camps by Arab nations who have used them as pawns in their persecution of Israel for the last 60 years. Now, a lot of these people were kicked out of their homes at gunpoint by members of the Haganah or the Irgun or later Tzahal in 1947~49 so Israel does have a moral obligation towards them, regardless of whether they are lazy or hardworking. This doesn't exclude the moral debt that Arab nations have toward them for not letting them rebuild their lives there. What would be fair? An arrangement in which both Israel and the Arab world contribute to compensate and fully accomodate them.
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bigtoe
post Aug 6 2008, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Aug 6 2008, 04:16 PM) *
Wow. You really hate them, don't you.

Nope. I actually don't. I was waiting for all the Pro-Palestinian mob to raise their hue and cry. Welcome.


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NY-LON
post Aug 6 2008, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Aug 6 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Wow. You really hate them, don't you.
They are being forced to live in refugee camps by Arab nations who have used them as pawns in their persecution of Israel for the last 60 years. Now, a lot of these people were kicked out of their homes at gunpoint by members of the Haganah or the Irgun or later Tzahal in 1947~49 so Israel does have a moral obligation towards them, regardless of whether they are lazy or hardworking. This doesn't exclude the moral debt that Arab nations have toward them for not letting them rebuild their lives there. What would be fair? An arrangement in which both Israel and the Arab world contribute to compensate and fully accomodate them.

Most of the "refugees" today were NOT forced out at gunpoint. The Palestinians are unique in that refugee status has been passed down through the generations. Even if one accepts that a sizeable proportion of the original refugees were really forced to leave (and not merely scared by stories or their own leaders) it's not true of the refugees today.

I don't hate the refugees, but I also don't see it as Israel's problem to build their state for them. The Arabs turned them into pawns, let them cough up. We resettled our refugees.


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existwhere?
post Aug 6 2008, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (bigtoe @ Aug 6 2008, 03:53 PM) *
No other country wants them. Forced is too strong of a word. They can't take initiative on their own and [even as they freely admit this among themselves] are too lazy to build and uphold a nice, democratic place to live. If they can hop the fence and have babies/get shrapnel from their own bombs removed in Israeli hospitals, why build their own??

.
QUOTE (NY-LON @ Aug 6 2008, 04:28 PM) *
Most of the "refugees" today were NOT forced out at gunpoint. The Palestinians are unique in that refugee status has been passed down through the generations. Even if one accepts that a sizeable proportion of the original refugees were really forced to leave (and not merely scared by stories or their own leaders) it's not true of the refugees today.

I don't hate the refugees, but I also don't see it as Israel's problem to build their state for them. The Arabs turned them into pawns, let them cough up. We resettled our refugees.

.


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Moshi
post Aug 6 2008, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (NY-LON @ Aug 6 2008, 04:28 PM) *
Most of the "refugees" today were NOT forced out at gunpoint. The Palestinians are unique in that refugee status has been passed down through the generations. Even if one accepts that a sizeable proportion of the original refugees were really forced to leave (and not merely scared by stories or their own leaders) it's not true of the refugees today.

I don't hate the refugees, but I also don't see it as Israel's problem to build their state for them. The Arabs turned them into pawns, let them cough up. We resettled our refugees.



[Ironic you should say that during the 9 days]


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Kalashnikover_Re...
post Aug 6 2008, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Jeanette @ Aug 6 2008, 03:50 PM) *
Is there any possible solution to the Palestininan refugee problem that does NOT involve resettling millions of Palestinians within Israel? What is your opinion on the validity of their claims? Why are they being forced to stay in camps m'dor l'dor instead of being allowed to build lives elsewhere (elsewhere excluding Israel)?

They aren't in "camps". That is propaganda. These "camps" have streets, buildings, water and electricity.
No it isn't luxurious, but it hardly evokes the image of an african "refugee camp"


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Jeanette
post Aug 6 2008, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Aug 6 2008, 05:59 PM) *
They aren't in "camps". That is propaganda. These "camps" have streets, buildings, water and electricity.
No it isn't luxurious, but it hardly evokes the image of an african "refugee camp"

Is it propaganda that they're not allowed to leave and seek opportunities elsewhere?
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NY-LON
post Aug 6 2008, 05:33 PM
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Yes and no. They could emigrate, if they could find a country to give them a visa. So in theory their movement isn't restricted, in practice most of them don't have a hell of a lot of choice, especially since in countries like Lebanon their education and opportunities were restricted. I don't think the Lebanese government forces them to stay. In fact the Lebanese would be very happy if the Palestinian refugees would disappear--they blame them (not entirely correctly) for the civil war.

The only refugees whose movement is really restricted are the ones in Gaza.


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bigtoe
post Aug 6 2008, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (NY-LON @ Aug 6 2008, 06:33 PM) *
The only refugees whose movement is really restricted are the ones in Gaza.

Restricted from coming into Israel you mean(?). Egypt bars 'em too? Interesting.


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Kalashnikover_Re...
post Aug 6 2008, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Jeanette @ Aug 6 2008, 06:01 PM) *
Is it propaganda that they're not allowed to leave and seek opportunities elsewhere?

They're "allowed" to leave, and anyone who CAN already has.

The problem is that no one WANTS them, they are the scourge of the Arab world and it serves their political antisemitic purposes to KEEP them "suffering" and blame it on the Evil Zionist Entity, the West and the worldwide Jewish conspiracy........ Even their OWN government lined their pockets and lived a life of luxury while the common people ate dirt.....


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bigtoe
post Aug 6 2008, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Aug 6 2008, 06:52 PM) *
The problem is that no one WANTS them..


QUOTE (bigtoe @ Aug 6 2008, 03:53 PM) *
No other country wants them.



There's the answer to your q Jeanette.


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bauerskates613