If you don't plan on reading much on this site today, at least make sure to read this:

I've read this thread over a few times and have summed up a lot of what members have written. It seems as though members feel that:
1) The direction of the site is far from the original goal and that it's the fault of the moderators.
2) The threads being discussed are pretty boring and very far from what they used to be - fired up, intellectual discussions. The site as a whole has become a place for schmoozing, blowing off steam, bantering. This is why the good members have left.
3) Mods deal with members subjectively and not objectively.
4) Upper level forums need tighter moderation.
5) Moderation teams needs a revamp b/c they're not doing their job.

There are a LOT of members with these complaints and this is not the first time (or the 3rd) time these complaints have been brought up. Some of the members have stood up against these complaints, but the majority of the members who participate in these threads feel unanimous about this.

While I agree that the board has moved from its original direction, I don't feel that it's a problem - rather a growing of something bigger. When I made this board, I wanted it to be a place where Jews from all over the world can connect, gather information, and 'get things right'. I have always had questions. And I still have questions. And as we ALL grow and evolve into greater people, we need to research and get information from others like us. A lot of people have been there and done that and can share their experiences with people who have the same problems. And a lot of people from the HUGE spectrum of Judaism have different views of the same thing and can learn from people on the opposite end. Sometimes, this causes clashes - but as long as people are willing to learn, the truth will be uncovered.

At the start of this site, members understood this and anyone who joined took part in something truly great. Conversations were thrilling and members from all walks of life came to Hashkafah.com to fight things out. I still remember 75+ pages on Lubavitch. And I miss BaronPhilip and misosbd, maybe even a little of Hashfanatic.

I once heard about the problem with some of these 'Learn and Shmooze" programs done by some organizations. First people come to learn the whole hour. Then they come to learn for 15 minutes and then shmooze for 45. Then they come to shmooze and grab some refreshments and aren't interested in the learning at all. In the end, people only come for the refreshments. B"H, we don't serve food here. But if we did, we'd end up being the food joint.

And so this site has evolved from a serious intellectual site to more of a community site. As members met and got to know each other through meets and via the board software, the site as a whole became a different place. Members no longer come to learn from other walks of Jewish life. Members come to share their everyday experiences and recipes. And a lot of us have earned 'reputations' as a result of our questions and responses. That’s probably why mods don't deal with
everything objectively. They know who and what to tolerate. But understand that more members know more of who each other are and posts reflect this. You can see this by looking at the board. Forums which contain content regarding our personal lives (everything from Technology down to the Billboard) are the busiest forums. The Member Corner alone has more threads than Jewish
Fundamentals! And now that I've opened the Gemara forums, there are few if any additions to that forum at all. Why? Because members don't come here to discuss gemara. They want to be part of this online community. They want to meet members who are going through the same things they are and members who are more like themselves. They're here to shmooze and not learn.
That's why a dozen plus women asked me to create the BYLR/AC forums! I fully understand that it's not what I want in regards to the direction of the site.
But 50+ active members lost is not something I'm looking for. Some of them don't post much on the rest of the site so it's either give it to them or let them go elsewhere (who knows, maybe I should lose 50+ members for the benefit of the rest). And I was shocked to see some high-profile members ask me for a 'Travel' forum! This is what the MEMBERS want, not the MODS. Why aren't the members asking me for a hilchos loshon horah forum? Why aren't they asking for the really serious torah forums?
Am I happy with the direction of the site? I'm not against it. It is what it is. And there isn't much for me to do. I wanted this to be a Bais Medrash and instead I got Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. What should I do? Close it down and tell people to sit and learn?

And none of this is the fault of the mods. How dare anyone say that the direction of the site is the fault of the mods. Active or inactive, the mods don't choose the direction of the site. They deal with posts and members subjectively based on their history. A Newbie posting loshon horah would get banned before a member lets say, KRebbe, gets warned. Members choose the topics and members are the one’s doing the talking. I don’t get it.

There is nothing wrong with the moderating team. In fact I commend them based on membership performance. Members are well aware of what their limits are and we haven't seen much pr0n or nazi members around. They also understand my moderation style. I don't think that every "..." or ":)" has to be zapped from a thread just because it isn't part of the conversation. In fact, the mods understand that even if a post is off topic, but RELEVANT, it should stay. Sometimes members need to put their two cents in, and the topic can continue with the maturity it had before. This is something I find great about our moderation style. And I consider it as the mods 'doing their job'.
On top of that, it would be chutzpah for me to FIRE or request that any mod QUIT when all they've done is work the board for me and deal with the kvetching of the members while UNPAID! If anyone chooses to resign because of their schedules, I would consider it and only with the greatest respect and appreciation. By the way - even if we got new mods, they would end being busy just likes the old mods. The old mods started out with tons of free time and ended up being busy. Some more busy mods won't solve any issues anyways.

I have some solutions, but I'm afraid of destroying a community for the sake of a few members. I feel like in the end, I’m going to end up with 5 members and some high quality threads vs. what I have now - lots of members with a few high level threads and lots of low type threads.

It's Tisha B'Av and we're all exhausted from the fast. We’re all on the same team about wanting a better site and the mods here are interested in making it a better place. Let’s work together to discover a solution. Then, maybe, Moshiach will join H.com and bring in the geulah, bimheira biyameinu, Amen!

Why is it wrong that the site has deviated from what you wanted it to be ?

Not everyone is a talmud chochom and not everyone wants to spend their free time with Torah Concepts. Yet we're Jewish and enjoy spending time here. What's wrong if we talk about recipes, travel, or w hat's wrong with our lives? If you don't like it, why can't you scroll on by ?

Silent J, you remind me of people who make simchas and think ev eryone should be sitting and singing d'veikus'dike nigunim and quietly listening to the dvar Torahs. But not all your guests want that. Some want a good meal and some social time. Others want to exclaim about new hairstyles and shoes and jewlery and talk about shidduchim or eineklach.

But if you are going to celebrate a simcha with the ba'al simcha, shouldn't you try to celebrate it in a way that will bring him the most simcha? Otherwise, why are you going, it's a little selfish? You shouldn't go to a wedding thinking about the food you will eat and people you will see, it should be about how you will bring simcha to the chosson / kallah.

All that being said, you do have a point about everyone wanting something different from the site and people shouldn't feel they can't contribute if they aren't scholarly and intelligent.

Some members feel that the site is boring and not what it used to be.

I'm not complaining about letting people talk about what they wish. But if members are unhappy because the site is not just divrei Torah, then it's a cause for concern.

These divrei torah members need to stay in their own section,then. and invite like minded friends.

LTL, that's the way most ppl are. People work long days and have big families. It's asking too much of them that a social even should be turned into a lecture or shiur.

Thank you for your response. I'll just speak for myself below.



Good summary.



Yes, this seems to have been the original and noble goal of h.com.



Are you saying that you are okay with the site no longer being able to sustain intellectual discussins, and you're happy that instead people come here to share recipes? You don't see it as a problem, but rather this is the direction you want the site to continue to evolve - towards a banter and recipe-sharing forum?
Just want to confirm that I'm reading you correctly.



This fact is what prompted me to start the thread you were so kind to read multiple times. So while I see it as a problem that people post more banter and in-jokes and advice than thought-out "hashkafah", you see it as a sign of how amazingly friendly the h.com membership has become with each other?



No, I believe that a lot of people on this site -- and a lot of new members -- would love to be able to discuss gemara or halacha or hashkafah. However, the climate of the site has become such that those discussion have trouble sustaining themselves as the degenerate into banter and in-jokes or plain indifference. This is of course a vicious circle, since this results in members who ARE interested in serious discussions to participate less (b/c they know their topics won't be taken seriously), and for new members to start out with the impression that the site's name is a misnomer. Give it another 6 months of non-action and you won't be able to differentiate between posts in BYLR and posts on the main board.




Okay so maybe you also see the banter and lack of real discussions as a problem? Which is it?



Because there are enough Torah forums for the amount of discussion presently in it. Those are some of the same "high-profile members" who would love to see better QUALITY Torah discussions. So I would not draw conclusions about member feelings from this particular fact. Rather, draw conclusions from the rapidly decreasing quantity and quality of Torah posts, and from the rapidly decreasing number of members interested in Torah discussions.



A number of suggestions have been offered in the "Hashkafah?" thread. I believe there are many things that can be done. One reason I think so, is because I see many of the old quality members, such as grend, among others, pop in when occasionally a good topic surfaces. And a great number of brand new members have registered on the site, posted some very informative and thought-provoking Torah posts, and then stopped posting, perhaps because they did not like being a part of the Mr. Rorgers Neighborhood.

So with better policies, perhaps those people can be motivated to post more consistently, and new and interesting and diverse members can join the site and alter its character. And when that happens, many of the existing members will remain attracted to the new and fresh discussions -- as well as to the continuing banter that no one is advocating against, in the "lower" forums.




I apologize for daring to say anything. Should I wash my mouth with soap?

<"Quote limit" reached. To be continued>

Lack of porn and nazi members is one measure of success of moderators.



I believe that moderators can do more to facilitate discussions, and to prevent abuse of newbies, and derailing of threads in the upper forums. They don't accomplish it by removing every "..." and ":)" I'm not sure why you need to exaggerate what people are suggesting in order to argue against it. There is a lot of ground between deleting every single off-topic remark, and only moderating postings of porn. In-between is the area where promising discussions can be facilitated and moderated.



"Firing" existing moderators does not accomplish anything.



Getting NEW moderators IN ADDITION to existing moderators absolutely accomplishes something and solves the issues of absentee moderators -- yes, new ones may also be busy, but by virtue of the fact that you have 10 people instead of 5 people with moderating rights, you double your chances of some of those moderators not being busy on any given day. A busy moderator can still delete a porn posting because that happens rarely and takes all of 5 seconds to do. But someone with a little more time can also facilitate the improvement of the climate on the site by doing more to keep discussions in the upper forums on track.


I'm not sure why you feel that improving the quality of discussions in the upper forums will result in drop-off of the "low-thread" type posters. People can still post in Dating and Marriage and Recipes and Member Corner and argue about the same inane things they argue about now, or they can still get travel or laptop advice. No one that I've seen is proposing curbing discussions in the lower forums.

If an effort is made to imrpove the quality of Torah discussions, then the result hopefully will be more Torah discussions, and maybe more members who have something interesting to contribute to those discussions. That's a worthwhile thing, isn't it? I don't think it would in any way conflict with people continuing to discussing in a whole other forum and thread whether chewing with the mouth open is a deal breaker for shiduchim.

Would anyone currently posting on the site leave just because the quality of the Jewish Fundamentals forum improves? I don't think so.





Yes.

Maybe rotating moderators would work to keep em sharp.

I also think we as members can help moderate the board ourselves by pointing out off topic posts, by not going off topic and not indulging mindless banter ourselves, and by asking repeat offenders to stop.

applause.

Link to a thread I started a little while ago with a suggestion for dividing the moderation team. It was not discussed at length but the replies given were in general positive. Please read it (if you haven't already), Mr. J.

Again, the original goal was for the site to be filled with serious discussions. But now there are few serious discussions and a lot of other types of discussions. I'm happy that there is a sense of community associated with the site. And I happen to enjoy a lot of these other discussions. But it's the direction that the members want the site to take. So for the members who are upset about the direction the site has taken, there is little I can do whether I like it or not - it is what it is.




Yup. I think it's a result of everyone getting comfortable with their online friends.


But they don't.


I really don't know where you're coming from here. In most or all of the serious discussions I've seen here, if someone pipes in with something off-topic, they're just ignored and the serious posters continue.
I would need specifics with links to specific forums because I'm not seeing serious members leaving because of a little banter or off-topic posts. Some of the members who have left have done so because they were hurt deeply by other MEMBERS.


Its a problem if the members think it is. The more I think about this it seems like some members don't like the serious stuff and some members don't like the not-so-serious stuff. Why doesn't everyone just stick to what they like and not complain that members aren't participating in their forums?