2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
for the athiests among us, on the subject of g-d
outspoken
post Aug 11 2008, 09:41 AM
Post #1


חסד זך
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3,073
Joined: 16-March 08
From: middle of nowhere
Member No.: 7,158


QUOTE
Montolio stopped to consider Drizzt. He heard a shuffle at the mention of his goddess, and he took it to be an uncomfortable movement. wanting to explore this revelation, montolio reached inside his chainmail and tunic and produced a pendant shaped like a unicorn's head.
"is it not beautiful?" he pointedly asked.
Drizzt hesitated. the unicorn was perfectly crafted and marvelous in design, but the connotations of such a pendant did not sit easily with the drow. Back in menzoberranzan Drizzt had witnessed the folly of following the commands of dieties, and he liked not at all what he had seen.
"who is your god drow?" Montolio Asked. In all the weeks he and drizzt had been together, they had not really discussed religion.
"I have no god," Drizzt answered boldly. "and neither do I want one."
It was Montolio's turn to pause.
Drizzt rose off and walked a few paces.
"My people follow Lloth," he began "She, if not the cause, is surely the continuation of their wickedness, as this Gruumsh is to the orcs, and as other gods are to other peoples. To follow a god is folly. I shall follow my heart instead."
Montolio's quiet chuckle stole the power from Drizzt's proclamation. "You have a god, Drizzt Do'Urden," he said.
"My god is my heart." Drizzt declared, turning back to him.
"As is mine."
You named you god as Mielikki." Drizzt protested
"And you have not found a name for your god yet," Montolio shot back. "That does not mean that you have no god. Your god is your heart, and what does your heart tell you?"
"I do not know," Drizzt admitted after considering the troubling question.
"Think then!" Montolio cried. "what did your instincts tell you of the gnoll band, or of the farmers in Moldobar? Lloth is not your diety, that much is certain. What god or goddess fits what is in Drizzt Do'Urden's heart?"
Montolio could almost hear Drizzt's continuing shrugs. "You do not know?" the old ranger asked. "But I do."
"You presume much," Drizzt replied, still not convinced.
"I observe much," Montolio said with a laugh. "Are you of like heart with Guenhyvar?"
"I have never doubted that fact," Drizzt answered honestly.
"Guenhwyvar follows Mielikki."
"How can you know?" Drizzt argued, growing a bit peturbed. He didn't mind Montolio's presumptions about him, but Drizzt considered such labeling an attack on the pather. Somehow to Drizzt, Guenhwyvar seemed above gods and all the implications of following one.
"how can i know?" Montolio asked incredulously. "the cat told me, of course! Guenhwyvar is the entity of the pather, a creature of Mielikki's domain."
"Guenhwyvar does not need your lables," Drizzt retorted angrily, moving briskly to sit beside the ranger.
"Of course not," Montolio agreed. "But that does not change the fact of it. You do not understand, Drizzt Do'Urden. You grew up amoung the preversion of a diety."
"And yours is the true one?" Drizzt asked sarcastically.
"They are all true, and they are all one, I fear." Montoloi replied. Drizzt had to agree with Montolio's earlier observation: He did not understand.
"you view the gods as entities without," Montolio tried to explain. "You see them as physical beings trying to control our actions for their own ends, and thus you, in your stubborn independence, reject them. The gods are within, I say, whether one has named his own or not. you have followed Mielikki all your life, Drizzt. You merely never had a name to put on your heart."


p. 181-183 of Sojourn, by R. A. Salvadore.

make of it what you will, but I think this is a pertinant message for the off the derechs here.


--------------------
"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yeru-Shalom
post Aug 16 2008, 07:30 PM
Post #2


Hocker
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 101
Joined: 17-January 08
Member No.: 7,055


QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 11 2008, 10:41 AM) *
p. 181-183 of Sojourn, by R. A. Salvadore.

make of it what you will, but I think this is a pertinant message for the off the derechs here.


After reading enough philosophy and theology, I (an atheist, formerly frum) have come to the point where I am beginning to realize that all religions are basically referring to the same "ultimate, ineffable reality." This realization has, in part, led me to be more accepting and less comtemptuous of Jewish dogma - I now see it less as silly-fantasy-stories-taken-too-literally and more as a living remnant of an ancient attempt to contemplate the "ultimate reality" and our place within it. The more I read Maimonides and a few other Jewish philosophers, the more I am convinced of this.

The other thing that has changed my stance on religion and the religious (which up until recently has been a stance of contempt), is Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I can write about this at length if anyone wishes to hear it, but I will make it short and say that one of the characters makes an interesting argument for humanity's need for religion, even though religion is "false" in the sense that most of its dogmatic claims have no real basis. He argues that many people are (and should) be (subconsciously) willing to forsake unbridled individual freedom (which is a crushing weight that few can bear very well) in exchange for the benefits that only religion can offer and that humans as a species crave, such as leadership (spiritual, moral, and secular), cooperation, and so on. I cannot say that I wholeheartedly agree with this argument, but it is certainly an argument worthy of respect and further investigation on my part.

Both of these recent "intellectual developments" of mine have definitely made me less hostile to religion and less contemptuous towards the religious. One indeed need not be crazy, stupid, or ignorant to be religious - that much I can now admit as an atheist.

But getting back to the original point, despite it all, I still cannot come to accept normative Judaism. On the one hand, many Gadolim have done a great job in developing a conception of G-d that is actually almost intellectually tenable....but on the other hand, there are still some highly anthropomorphic aspects of the Jewish G-d that not even the most esoteric (non-heretical) Jewish philosopher that I've come across will dare ascribe to mere metaphor. G-d literally communicated with Moses and literally performed physically-impossible miracles because he intentionally saved the Israelites from Egypt, after all....and this "gray-bearded old man in the sky" element can never really be separated from normative Judaism, no matter how much some like to say it is.

Until I find a satisfactory way to explain the highly anthropomorphic nature of the Jewish G-d, I just can't get back on the derech.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 03:51 AM
Post #3


Gabbai
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 438
Joined: 18-July 08
From: Pacific Northwest
Member No.: 7,390


I have asked this question of others, only to get insults as responses, which only leads me to believe that they are only here to insult others & disrupt the topics they don't like.
Perhaps, if, as you say, you are now less hostile towards those who are religious, you can honestly answer my question without rancor.

If you are an athiest, why are you on a forum for those who are frum?


--------------------

"There's too much finger pointing backward to make you think they're going anywhere but backward" - Palin

It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

yes, I openly admit to being shallow - Shuli

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bauerskates613
post Aug 18 2008, 07:05 AM
Post #4


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 10-February 07
From: Bristol
Member No.: 4,893


QUOTE (YoelYitzchak @ Aug 18 2008, 09:51 AM) *
I have asked this question of others, only to get insults as responses, which only leads me to believe that they are only here to insult others & disrupt the topics they don't like.
Perhaps, if, as you say, you are now less hostile towards those who are religious, you can honestly answer my question without rancor.

If you are an athiest, why are you on a forum for those who are frum?

This is not a 'forum for those who are frum'


--------------------
Javol!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 07:12 AM
Post #5


Gabbai
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 438
Joined: 18-July 08
From: Pacific Northwest
Member No.: 7,390


QUOTE (bauerskates613 @ Aug 18 2008, 05:05 AM) *
This is not a 'forum for those who are frum'



You are correct, I miss spoke. What it actually says is:

"Hashkafah.com is the Premier Frum Jewish Forum for all Jews. Discuss any Jewish and Torah topic from Shidduchim to Kosher to Learning in Yeshiva."

So it's not a forum for those who are frum, it's just a frum site.

Regardless, as you described yourself as an atheist my question is still the same.


--------------------

"There's too much finger pointing backward to make you think they're going anywhere but backward" - Palin

It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

yes, I openly admit to being shallow - Shuli

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bauerskates613
post Aug 18 2008, 07:26 AM
Post #6


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 10-February 07
From: Bristol
Member No.: 4,893


QUOTE (YoelYitzchak @ Aug 18 2008, 01:12 PM) *
You are correct, I miss spoke. What it actually says is:

"Hashkafah.com is the Premier Frum Jewish Forum for all Jews. Discuss any Jewish and Torah topic from Shidduchim to Kosher to Learning in Yeshiva."

So it's not a forum for those who are frum, it's just a frum site.

Regardless, as you described yourself as an atheist my question is still the same.

where did I describe myself as an atheist?
And further, the answer can be found in the description of the site.


--------------------
Javol!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 08:13 AM
Post #7


Gabbai
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 438
Joined: 18-July 08
From: Pacific Northwest
Member No.: 7,390


QUOTE (bauerskates613 @ Aug 18 2008, 05:26 AM) *
where did I describe myself as an atheist?
And further, the answer can be found in the description of the site.



You know what? You are right again.
It was because you responded to a question that I had asked someone else. I didn't look at the name until now.

And that was the description right out of google & since Silent J is the who gave them that information....


--------------------

"There's too much finger pointing backward to make you think they're going anywhere but backward" - Palin

It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

yes, I openly admit to being shallow - Shuli

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bauerskates613
post Aug 18 2008, 08:16 AM
Post #8


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 10-February 07
From: Bristol
Member No.: 4,893


QUOTE (YoelYitzchak @ Aug 18 2008, 02:13 PM) *
You know what? You are right again.
It was because you responded to a question that I had asked someone else. I didn't look at the name until now.

And that was the description right out of google & since Silent J is the who gave them that information....

huh? my point is, simply, this is NOT a forum for frum jews, but a frum forum. Many OTD's and 'atheists' may perhaps want to still connect to the frum community.


--------------------
Javol!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 18 2008, 08:23 AM
Post #9



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,144
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 08:38 AM
Post #10


Gabbai
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 438
Joined: 18-July 08
From: Pacific Northwest
Member No.: 7,390


QUOTE (bauerskates613 @ Aug 18 2008, 06:16 AM) *
huh? my point is, simply, this is NOT a forum for frum jews, but a frum forum. Many OTD's and 'atheists' may perhaps want to still connect to the frum community.



I said:

"Hashkafah.com is the Premier Frum Jewish Forum for all Jews. Discuss any Jewish and Torah topic from Shidduchim to Kosher to Learning in Yeshiva."

So it's not a forum for those who are frum, it's just a frum site."

So why are you questioning what I posted - before you said exactly the same thing as I already had said in some weird way to correct me???


QUOTE (melech @ Aug 18 2008, 06:23 AM) *
I assume that those who supposedly appear as if to post matters not torah true are only guilty of leaving their computers accessible to their coworkers without signing off at which point the coworkers post using the members' accounts.



And was there any purpose in that post aside from a weak attempt to embarrass me?


--------------------

"There's too much finger pointing backward to make you think they're going anywhere but backward" - Palin

It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

yes, I openly admit to being shallow - Shuli

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bauerskates613
post Aug 18 2008, 08:42 AM
Post #11


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 10-February 07
From: Bristol
Member No.: 4,893


QUOTE (YoelYitzchak @ Aug 18 2008, 02:38 PM) *
I said:

"Hashkafah.com is the Premier Frum Jewish Forum for all Jews. Discuss any Jewish and Torah topic from Shidduchim to Kosher to Learning in Yeshiva."

So it's not a forum for those who are frum, it's just a frum site."

So why are you questioning what I posted - before you said exactly the same thing as I already had said in some weird way to correct me???

I'm not questioning what you posted. Perhaps I misunderstood. I interpreted your post as a further question about why non-frum people post here. If so, I responded, 'because they still want a connection.'


--------------------
Javol!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 08:47 AM
Post #12


חסד זך
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3,073
Joined: 16-March 08
From: middle of nowhere
Member No.: 7,158


bauerskate doesn't usualy try to emberass people, and is generaly pretty mellow about things.


--------------------
"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bauerskates613
post Aug 18 2008, 08:50 AM
Post #13


Rebbe
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 10-February 07
From: Bristol
Member No.: 4,893


QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 18 2008, 02:47 PM) *
bauerskate doesn't usualy try to emberass people, and is generaly pretty mellow about things.

(I think the 'embarrass' clause was directed at melech)


--------------------
Javol!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 08:52 AM
Post #14


חסד זך
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3,073
Joined: 16-March 08
From: middle of nowhere
Member No.: 7,158


QUOTE (bauerskates613 @ Aug 18 2008, 09:50 AM) *
(I think the 'embarrass' clause was directed at melech)

I don't think emberass was quite the word. I just mean in the sense that you don't happen to be a flaming off the derech.


--------------------
"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Melech
post Aug 18 2008, 08:55 AM
Post #15



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 34,144
Joined: 2-September 03
Member No.: 239


QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 18 2008, 09:52 AM) *
flaming off the derech.

Quoted. Just 'cause I like the phrase.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
YoelYitzchak