How does this work out in a practical sense? Do all kids end up getting in to tier I or tier II professions? What about the kids who are not academic? Who have learning disabilities? Who score below 1200 on their SATs?

tier III, tier IV, etc, I suppose. they go into business. I dunno. What do any Jewish kids do who aren't academic?

40% of the families in my kids' school are subsidized. 2/3 of the families in my shul don't pay full dues. the poor and those in debt and those who struggle nad those who rely on family and those who are always playing one credit card off against another and those who live beyond their means are not confined to any particular camp within the spectrum of orthodoxy.

what are tier I and II professions?

tier I is lawyers and doctors, anyone else? 6 figures minimum for that?

I'm not sure. There was once a discussion about this.

Basically you can't afford a frum lifestyle if you are not earning 6 figures, without subsidies or government aid. In the RW societies it's more socially acceptable to be poor and to be on gov't assistance (rightfully or wrongfully), which isn't the case with MO. So what happens to MO who slip through the cracks and don't bring home those big paychecks?


Oh. I thought this was an exclusively RW thing.

right i think 6 figures family income is the bare minimum for a family with children.....

i have no idea.

My wife puts them on her food drive list.

Talk to my wife. She knows what's what in our community. It's not pretty.

There are plenty of happy people living in walk-ups in Brooklyn, driving old cars, going to the lower cost yeshivas, and not eating out twice a week.

And not having 6-10 kids.

For this particular example and for specific clarification can you please identify examples of living beyond ones means.

[A question I've always had is if your hashkafah aligns itself closely to lets say MO for this case, what if you can't afford school? It's not a luxury, but you want your child educated in the MO hashkafah and it wouldn't happen at your run of the mill yeshivish institution.]

Can you (melech or someone else) create a list of professional tiers for purposes of this thread.

http://www.hashkafah.com/Tier-Professions-t42586.html

http://www.hashkafah.com/People-Afford-Live-t42556.html

Since when do docs make so much money anymore... Some do and many dont, they make a living, but with tuitions being what they are, and of course paying th full amount, you end up being poor...

off the top of my head
tier one
big firm lawyers
business/ hedge fund/stockmarket wiz kids
Big 4 accounting firms
Actuaries
Chemichal engineers/MIT types/Nasa types
MD/DO/DDS that get into the right specialties I think DDs make the most, with the best hours... And if you specialize ortho, perio etc even more.
im sure there are more

I view tuition payments (and I'm very fortunate to be paying my share) as an investment in the future.
An investment in raising a child who can function as an independent adult.
Often, but of course, not always, investments pay off.

Im agree, but the point is that even a tier one professionals ends up being on the same level as a teacher because the tie ones get no tuition breaks, thus they have the same amount or less sometimes then tier two's...

As for tuition itself, when preschools charge 12 grand or even 7 grand its out of control.

Like it or not, class & social status is still effectively inherited to a very large degree. I'm pretty sure that a caring and thoughtful upper-middle-class family could get their average-intelligence-kid onto an upper-middle-class income track. As to the ones below average? Maybe they drift out of MO. Or maybe they're just pitied by their neighbors.


If tier I / tier II is income based, there are lots of ways to make a decent paycheck without a graduate degree and without being doctor/lawyer etc. "General Management" or "Executive Management" in many fields will pay decently. You could, for example, become an executive at a publishing firm and make lots of money, and that's just a generic sort of role. Rise the ranks. Of course all the other things mentioned - finance, consulting, tech ....