if you were a rebbetzin/rabbi (with a relationship to said boy) and a college going frum bochur (never really had a girlfriend, never dated, still not allowed to date, etc) who was struggling came to you and told you that he was going to date a formerly orthodox girl (but not really off the derech, "of orthodox outlook") and the girl asked you if you would host her for shabbos from now on so that she could keep shabbos, would you host her?

if asked, bochur says that he simply cannot cope. (and clearly unhappy about this.)

would it matter if they intended to be totaly shomer negiah or not? would graduations make a difference?

(switch the boy and girl's rolls if you like)

would you give them support? how much? would you accept them or write the boy off as a "lost cause" and tell any (provided this couple broke up) future shidduchim that he simply wasn't commited/and or a no good shidduch? would you judge him negatively? what would you think of him? would you ever help him in shidduchim after that?

assume, for the moment, extremely limited field of choices. (and also a fairly well behaved bochur, not known for messing around) as well as reasonably well behaved girl.

would your support increase if it made a difference in the rest of the bochur's frumkeit? such as he starts going to shul more, or even completely regularly, spending more time studying, looking generaly happier.

thanks for your input.

Bochur says he can't cope with what?

How long is this relationship going to last?

What do you mean support? Give them money?

whats support and money have to do with it?

I mean support in the sense of thinking it as a good thing. (even if you're worried that something bad might come out of it.)

and at this point length of duration is uncertain, but the relationship is assumed not to be at all frivolous or simply for fun. Both are together more for the companionship of a jewish person who is at least orthodox positive than it is for messing around or something.

but I would add that marriage (while on the bochur's mind) is not certain. if you want you could specify that your support would depend on the seriousness of the girl and whether she was doing this just as a stop gap or whether or not she thought this might develop into something.

and the bochur can't cope with being alone. (in the emotional/social sense.)

I'm still not getting the scenario.

Bachur wants to develop a relationship with a girl, to assuage loneliness, which may or may not lead to marriage and may or may not lead to physical intimacy? You want to know if I would sanction such a relationship?

then let me be perfectly concrete.

this is about me. I'm at the point where I can't stand being alone anymore and am seriously considering whether or not I should accept and (as yet completely unknown) possibilities to build a relationship with a jewish girl. Personaly, I'd rather she be frum and it lead to marriage and not mess around at all, but I don't seem to have any choices in that regard since i'm not allowed to go into shidduchim yet and there (obviously) aren't any frum girls where I am, certainly not ones who would consider a relationship with me. its hurting me horribly and I can't deal with it anymore and I'm at the point of saying I can't cope and can't deal with it and need someone for companionship. I'd rather it lead to marriage. I'd rather she be frum. I doubt I would lead to the former and doubt that she could be the latter.

and I just can't cope. I'm not interesting in messing around, and I don't want to break shomer negiah outside of marriage at all, but since the only options are a secular (jewish) girl and since they don't exactly respect shomer negiah (althoug they may respect not seriously messing around before marriage) and probably wouldn't remain in a shomer negiah relationship, I'm not exactly sure I have any options, cause I just can't cope with being alone anymore .I want to get married. I simply don't have that option for another two years till I'm out of school and into a job, but I'm on the verge of breaking down and taking anyone, jew or non-jew and I'm afraid of geting to that point.

I don't know I know I'm stupid and bad and loose, and not a good person or worthy of respect, but I need the companionship desperately. I just can't deal anymore, and I don't feel like I have any workable options. I'm a horrible person you don't have to remind me. its hurting my frumkeit, its hurting my relationship with hashem, its litteraly breaking me. I feel like all the love I need to give is being bottled up inside and poisoning me.

and I want some help thinking through all of the ramifications, including and especialy what it might cost me socialy or whether or not it would be likely that the important (religious) figures in my life might reject me becuase of it or if maybe, just maybe, they would give it a chance to demonstrate whether or not it will untimately be good for me emotionaly and help me salvage the severe damage being alone is doing to my relationship with hashem.

I'm sorry for being such a freaking idiot all the time!

I'm just getting to the point of shear, utter blind desperation not to be alone anymore. I can't do this anymore. I can't. I really am about to the point of giving up. I just can't do it anymore and noone seems to care it feels like everyone things that I'm just a bad person who doesn't care about hashem or what is right and who is simply I dunno. a wicked sinner or something. a really very bad person Iguess. I dunno. sorry for being such a stupid freak.

Listen dude, your a good nice kid, and you have a great future ahead of you. I think you need to keep your head up higher.

What do you mean by "not allowed" to date? Do you mean that because you're not yet ready to financially take on the responsibilities of marriage, you're not ready to enter into shidduchim?


I understand your frustration and loneliness (I won't say I know how you feel, because I don't, but I understand the position you're in), but if you don't mind me saying so, it sounds like you have a whole lot on your plate, and a relationship with a girl might sound like a panacea to you now but it's not going to solve any of your problems and will possibly cause you fresh ones. No comment on my hashkafic opinion of non-tachlis dating--I'm just cautioning you against grasping at straws rather than addressing your real issues. Perhaps if you felt stronger and less emotionally labile you'd be able to enter into a secure opposite sex relationship that won't go in a direction that you don't intend. I think for now you should focus on building nurturing friendships with kind, stable, mature people who can give you the sense of security that you need.

I don't expect it to solve any problems but one: being alone.

and its not like its my choice. there aren't any options for going on shidduchim. I'd much rather it lead to marriage. if I want to find anyone, anyone at all, this is about my ONLY option practicaly. the first person whom any potential mechutanim would call (and the one they're likely to see as most authorotative, regardless of the fact that his wife is the better one to ask by a mile, he doesn't understand these things well, by his own admission, even though he gets in them anyway) will simply tell them that they're wasting their time and to find someone else, and that will be the end of that. why call anyone else when the major person they're likely to see as a good person to call works his hardest to disuade them as to why the boy is completely unmarriageable at the moment, and has said that he would do this to my face?

like I said, I can't cope and I don't feel like I have any options at all. I can't deal with this anymore.

And just to address ( tangentially) your point, marriage and relationships cant be wonderful, but they come with a different set of "worries" and you need to make sure you are emotionally capable of dealing with all that comes with a responsible relationship. A relationship is not just two people "sharing their love", but I wish you the best.

I agree with Jeanette.

It looks like you are looking for an emotional band aid. Band aids don't fix long term issues or solve underling problems. It may look like this situation is your only emotional option right this second, but like she said, it sounds to outsiders like you are grasping at straws rather than addressing your real issues.

may i ask you why he (your rabbi?) feels this way? is it because he thinks you are emotionally not ready for marriage or because he just doesn't think highly of you as a person?

do you have a specific girl in mind? cause it's not so easy to find an opposite sex friend (gf/bf) for a meaningful relationship (i'm not talking about living together) in teh secular world either. but even if you do find her, think from her perspective - what would she want from this relationship and would you be able to provide it?

Very good points (and I agree with Jeanette and Nechama also).

I think you'd be better off building solid relationships of a non-romantic sort for the time being. Do you have close friends? Mentors?

One can feel very "alone" in the middle of a relationship so getting into something with someone might not even solve that one problem.

why are you so sure that I'm looking for an emotional bandaid?

look, I have problems A, B, C, D, E, F, G. . . X, Y, Z. I know that. Problems A. . . W make up set "A", and are emotional issues that I've accumulated. they're not going to go away without some serious therapy. I know that good and well, I don't expect them to make things better. Problems X, Y and Z are a different bag all together. Problem Z is utterly unsolvable, but isn't otherwise that much of a problem (at least at the moment), problem Y is also unsolvable, but is certainly very mitgatable. Except for problem X. Problem X, with some moderate care, is completely solvable, but on the other hand, problem X is also exacerbating every other problem on the list but Z (which is generaly static and unchanging), problem X is greatly exacerbating problem Y, which is in turn causing it to greatly excacerbate everything in set "A" to boot.

so why not solve problem X?! No solving problem X wont solve any of the set "A" problems, but it will certain stop it from making them worse than they have to be, and stop making Y worse which is dong alot of stuff to Set A, over and beyond X by its lonesome.

my mashpiah said that I was ready to be married, and she saw alot of me. maybe I've gotten worse since then, I don't know at this point, but thats what she said.

I',m not looking for a bandaid to hide my problems, I'm just looking to work on having someone to love and build a relationship with, so that my loneliness can stop exacerbating every other problem I have. (particularly the bipolar issue. All available research seems to say that one of the absolute necessities for coping with that problem is a loving SO of some sort. it makes the difference between something crushing and unmanagable to something quite treatable. this issue by its lonesome is alot, but being alone makes it a whole lot worse. Your SO is the single greatest ally and help you can have in coping with it, and it is also tending to exacerbate all my other problems as well.)

It will not solve them. I need alot of therapy for that and I know that. I know it good and well. I intend to get that therapy, and I'm already working on finding a therapist who might help.

and elana, yes there is a particular girl in mind, but I'm not sure if she's single at this point. she's a very nice girl, and like the OP mentioned, formerly orthodox (but not having abandoned it, and intends to return, last I talked to her) last I heard she was in a very on and off again (and apperantly not that satisfactory) relationship. I'm not sure if she still is, from the last time I talked to her she might not be by now. I dunno. not that I'm going to single her out, just that if available, she'd really be the best option by far. (the only even semi real option given that I'm orthodox, although it seems I'm faltering.)

ETA but then on elana, said girl, knowing as much as she knows about orthodox life and the like, probably wouldn't date me for fear of hurting me or taking advantage of me, even if she was single and interested. she'd probably tell me that since I've been taught the way I've been taught, I couldn't look at the relationship in a hear and now sense and would only view it as (hopefully) a prelude to marriage and all that stuff and probably wouldn't get involved period.

And it all feels so hopeless.

look, I'm asking you all to help me think about this, from every side and every aspect, and all you're doing is telling me "don't", which isn't particularly helpful.

if all you're saying is don't then thats all I have, and its very easy to simply say "well they don't understand how bad I feel and how much I need it" when thats all that you're going to say.

Please actualy discuss the issue with me, instead of simply saying "don't" "you're looking for an emotional bandaid" etc.

discuss the pros, the cons, the problems, the realities of it. especialy discuss what you would think of someone in that situation, and how you would relate to the