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Peyos and the Temani Jews
the Real Adiel
post Aug 14 2008, 07:34 AM
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I've heard that the closest thing to Ancient Yiddishkeit are the Temanim. They were relatively isolated for the longest and didn't move around much.

I'm wondering if they always had those peyos and is that also a throwback to way-back-when.


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Shemmy
post Aug 14 2008, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (the Real Adiel @ Aug 14 2008, 08:34 AM) *
I've heard that the closest thing to Ancient Yiddishkeit are the Temanim. They were relatively isolated for the longest and didn't move around much.

I'm wondering if they always had those peyos and is that also a throwback to way-back-when.


According to Haham Yoseph Qafah, the simanim (as they were called in Teman) are an ancient custom. We certainly know that at the time of the Rambam, many Jews were wearing them - if I recall correctly, the Rambam considered the wearing of simanim to be a minhag shetut (and when I speak of wearing simanim, I refer to what we're accustomed to seeing on Hassidim, not to the actual halachic practice of not destroying the pe'ah). On the other hand, and I can't quite finger where at the moment, I've also seen it written by many, including some Temanim, that the simanim were required by the Ishmaelite rulers of Arabia Felix, in order to distinguish the Jews from the Ishmaelites.


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TheDuncePolice
post Aug 14 2008, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (the Real Adiel @ Aug 14 2008, 08:34 AM) *
I've heard that the closest thing to Ancient Yiddishkeit are the Temanim. They were relatively isolated for the longest and didn't move around much.

I'm wondering if they always had those peyos and is that also a throwback to way-back-when.

They've taken so many customs from the locals that I wonder if their way is the most authentic (not specifically the simanim).


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Shemmy
post Aug 14 2008, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (TheDuncePolice @ Aug 14 2008, 08:50 AM) *
They've taken so many customs from the locals that I wonder if their way is the most authentic (not specifically the simanim).


Every Jewish community has taken several customs from their host cultures.


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To me the only constructive thing to come out of the "OTD phenomenon" is that most of them are really ignorant or have primitive ideas about Judaism, so if people were more introspective we could reflect on the shoddy state of the schools and what kids are learning


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Melech
post Aug 14 2008, 08:17 AM
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QUOTE (the Real Adiel @ Aug 14 2008, 08:34 AM) *
I've heard that the closest thing to Ancient Yiddishkeit are the Temanim.

That myth has been debunked previously on h.com.
That said, apparently their girsa of sifrei torah are the most accurate.
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outspoken
post Aug 14 2008, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE (melech @ Aug 14 2008, 09:17 AM) *
That myth has been debunked previously on h.com.
That said, apparently their girsa of sifrei torah are the most accurate.

theres only one difference, an aleph instead of a hei in petzuah dakah in sefer devarim.


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Jewcepticon
post Aug 14 2008, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Shemmy @ Aug 14 2008, 08:42 AM) *
According to Haham Yoseph Qafah, the simanim (as they were called in Teman) are an ancient custom. We certainly know that at the time of the Rambam, many Jews were wearing them - if I recall correctly, the Rambam considered the wearing of simanim to be a minhag shetut (and when I speak of wearing simanim, I refer to what we're accustomed to seeing on Hassidim, not to the actual halachic practice of not destroying the pe'ah). On the other hand, and I can't quite finger where at the moment, I've also seen it written by many, including some Temanim, that the simanim were required by the Ishmaelite rulers of Arabia Felix, in order to distinguish the Jews from the Ishmaelites.

do u have a source for your claim that rambam thought it was a stupid custom?


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Jewcepticon
post Aug 14 2008, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 14 2008, 09:35 AM) *
theres only one difference, an aleph instead of a hei in petzuah dakah in sefer devarim.

9 differences actually, most of them having to do with Yuds and Waws (full spelling vs Half spelling)


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TheDuncePolice
post Aug 14 2008, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (Shemmy @ Aug 14 2008, 09:05 AM) *
Every Jewish community has taken several customs from their host cultures.

Yes. Many have. But what did Americans take? Hungarians? Belgians?


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the Real Adiel
post Aug 15 2008, 05:06 AM
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QUOTE (TheDuncePolice @ Aug 14 2008, 09:55 PM) *
But what did Americans take?


crocs (duh rolleyes.gif )


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TheDuncePolice
post Aug 15 2008, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE (the Real Adiel @ Aug 15 2008, 06:06 AM) *
crocs (duh rolleyes.gif )

laugh.gif


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artscroll
post Sep 15 2008, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Aug 14 2008, 08:17 AM) *
That myth has been debunked previously on h.com.
That said, apparently their girsa of sifrei torah are the most accurate.

Most like the type endorsed by the Rambam, if that means the most accurate.

As far as the "ancientness" of Temani Judaism, that would be a more compelling myth if they weren't so Arabized and if the Rambam (12th century) didn't loom so large for them. Not that this is a bad thing, but essentially don't confuse "most like authentic Arabian peninsula culture" with "most like ancient -- and pre Arab -- Jewish culture."


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Melech
post Sep 15 2008, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (artscroll @ Sep 15 2008, 02:16 PM) *
Most like the type endorsed by the Rambam, if that means the most accurate.

by definition tongue.gif
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artscroll
post Sep 15 2008, 01:45 PM
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Why?


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Shaffier
post Sep 16 2008, 05:26 AM
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QUOTE (Shemmy @ Aug 14 2008, 07:42 AM) *
According to Haham Yoseph Qafah, the simanim (as they were called in Teman) are an ancient custom. We certainly know that at the time of the Rambam, many Jews were wearing them - if I recall correctly, the Rambam considered the wearing of simanim to be a minhag shetut (and when I speak of wearing simanim, I refer to what we're accustomed to seeing on Hassidim, not to the actual halachic practice of not destroying the pe'ah). On the other hand, and I can't quite finger where at the moment, I've also seen it written by many, including some Temanim, that the simanim were required by the Ishmaelite rulers of Arabia Felix, in order to distinguish the Jews from the Ishmaelites.


If it is true that that the Rambam held that way, that may be the biggest proof that simanim precedes their connection with him. Also, it's well known that the local arabs wouldn't allow jews to shave their payos or their beards, but not because they invented the idea of jews wearing them, but rather because it had always been clear to them that a beard and peyos was part of how a Jew looked. They didn't want them to start trying to blend in, and "corrupting" their ways. The fact that assimalation was not an option in yeman, is precisely the reason they were able to hold on to so much of their mesoret. Not to say that nothing has changed since there arrival in yeman after Bayis rishon. For sure their were changes in the accent and clothing, and they "updated" their halachic system to that of the Rambam after receiving the Mishnah Torah. But those actual mitzvah oriented minhagim, that are not in accord with the rambam, are basicly excepted to from there bayis rishon roots. That is with exception to a few communities that had regular exchange with the Jews of morrroco. But there simanim were despite that, since morocan jews didn't have them.
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Jewcepticon
post Sep 16 2008, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (Shaffier @ Sep 16 2008, 06:26 AM) *
If it is true that that the Rambam held that way, that may be the biggest proof that simanim precedes their connection with him. Also, it's well known that the local arabs wouldn't allow jews to shave their payos or their beards, but not because they invented the idea of jews wearing them, but rather because it had always been clear to them that a beard and peyos was part of how a Jew looked. They didn't want them to start trying to blend in, and "corrupting" their ways. The fact that assimalation was not an option in yeman, is precisely the reason they were able to hold on to so much of their mesoret. Not to say that nothing has changed since there arrival in yeman after Bayis rishon. For sure their were changes in the accent and clothing, and they "updated" their halachic system to that of the Rambam after receiving the Mishnah Torah. But those actual mitzvah oriented minhagim, that are not in accord with the rambam, are basicly excepted to from there bayis rishon roots. That is with exception to a few communities that had regular exchange with the Jews of morrroco. But there simanim were despite that, since morocan jews didn't have them.

Morrocan Jews,Iraqi Jews,Persian jews etc all had peyos, short ones tho like 2 or 3 inches and tucked behind the ear, Ben ish hai mentions that the best length for peyos is to let them grow so they hang at the start of the beard


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