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damaged people
outspoken
post Aug 16 2008, 09:25 PM
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why does hashem make damaged people and condemn them to loneliness?

I mean, its bad enough to be profoundly a braindamaged vegetable and not even know that yo uhave to spend the rest of your life alone cause you're not concious enough to realize the difference, but for hashem to make people who aren't gone, but are still too damaged for anyone to take them, its so cruel.


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Dan
post Aug 17 2008, 03:40 AM
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Gilgul to fix parts of neshama that needed fixing. (and are sometimes made autistic so that what was already good didn't get ruined. i.e. blind people already reached a state of perfection regarding vision in a previous gilgul, thus so that it didn't get damaged, g-d created him blind.)


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YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 03:07 AM
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I also think that sometimes it's not just for the person who is "damaged", but also for those who have interacted with them.


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krumlikeapretzel
post Aug 18 2008, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 16 2008, 08:25 PM) *
why does hashem make damaged people and condemn them to loneliness?
I disagree with your premise. People who are born with physiological and/or psychological illnesses are not "condemned" to loneliness. In reality all you really need is one other person to break the cycle. If you think about it, the possibility of one little individual righting the wrongs of society is empowering and should give us all hope. Even a person who is in the position of suffering from a disability has the opportunity to do this, obviously if you reach out to others, someone will be receptive.

Now why does "god" make people with disabilities? Well, that's a major reason why I reject the whole idea of a "god", at least in the monotheistic "almighty, completely good and with no competition" way. I also think most attempts at theosophy for issues like this are just examples of lucky unaffected third parties patting themselves in the back and making themselves feel good without offering any help to the actual people who need it. Read: they're part of the problem.
QUOTE
I mean, its bad enough to be profoundly a braindamaged vegetable
Can an eggplant be braindamaged? How about a tomato?
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YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 04:42 AM
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I think a bigger issue might be those who are "damaged" but refuse to admit they need help, so they do things like try to make others as miserable as they are.


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It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

Once, many moons ago when morals still existed.... - TDP

[Sephardic-Male] doesn't bother with facts - NY-LON

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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 04:49 AM
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On the British X Factor talent show I watched last night, (this was the first audtions, programme #1) a girl called Rachel sang like an angel and won 4 yesses from the judges including a "I really love you" from Simon Cowell. She was 26. Had her first baby at 13, went on to have four more, from different fathers, most of them drug dealers who got her hooked on cocaine and heroin. She spent two spells in jail for theft to fund her habit. Most of her children were either taken into care or adopted. I think only one child is with her. Anyone more likely to come under the heading of "damaged" is hard to imagine.

And yet this feisty, extremely positive young woman is determined to turn her life around. She has the potential of winning the entire contest. And even if she doesn't, just last night's initial audition will, I think, turn her life around.

Outspoken, your life is in your hands. You can either sit around and feel sorry for yourself, or you can get off your touches and do something about it.


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YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 05:03 AM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 02:49 AM) *
Outspoken, your life is in your hands. You can either sit around and feel sorry for yourself, or you can get off your touches and do something about it.



Good advice, not always easy to follow...
I had a hard time in 2007. My ex left in December 2006 (without telling anyone so no one knew to check up on me), while I was unable to care for myself & on heavy pain killers. I was faced with the biggest fear of my life - being alone & unable to care for myself.

It took a while (and surgery) to get over things, but then I realized that I had actually faced the biggest fear of my entire life & lived through it.

Sometimes the hardest part was taking the first steps....going back to work & having to tell everyone that my (seemingly) happy marriage was no more, just facing the world in general...

Now, it's another hard step - I'm ready to date again but I'm 49 so where do I go, what do I do? Especially as I'm more observant now..
Every once in a while, when it gets too overwhelming (I overwhelm myself to be honest), I just have to let it go & continue to have faith. If I can do that (it gets easier as time goes on), I know I'm doing well!


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It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

Once, many moons ago when morals still existed.... - TDP

[Sephardic-Male] doesn't bother with facts - NY-LON

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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (YoelYitzchak @ Aug 18 2008, 11:03 AM) *
Good advice, not always easy to follow...
I had a hard time in 2007. My ex left in December 2006 (without telling anyone so no one knew to check up on me), while I was unable to care for myself & on heavy pain killers. I was faced with the biggest fear of my life - being alone & unable to care for myself.

It took a while (and surgery) to get over things, but then I realized that I had actually faced the biggest fear of my entire life & lived through it.

Sometimes the hardest part was taking the first steps....going back to work & having to tell everyone that my (seemingly) happy marriage was no more, just facing the world in general...

Now, it's another hard step - I'm ready to date again but I'm 49 so where do I go, what do I do? Especially as I'm more observant now..
Every once in a while, when it gets too overwhelming (I overwhelm myself to be honest), I just have to let it go & continue to have faith. If I can do that (it gets easier as time goes on), I know I'm doing well!


There you go. You did it. So can anyone. I really believe you can overcome almost any obstacle with the right determination. But sink into self pity and apathy and you'll trip over a pebble.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 07:28 AM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 05:49 AM) *
On the British X Factor talent show I watched last night, (this was the first audtions, programme #1) a girl called Rachel sang like an angel and won 4 yesses from the judges including a "I really love you" from Simon Cowell. She was 26. Had her first baby at 13, went on to have four more, from different fathers, most of them drug dealers who got her hooked on cocaine and heroin. She spent two spells in jail for theft to fund her habit. Most of her children were either taken into care or adopted. I think only one child is with her. Anyone more likely to come under the heading of "damaged" is hard to imagine.

And yet this feisty, extremely positive young woman is determined to turn her life around. She has the potential of winning the entire contest. And even if she doesn't, just last night's initial audition will, I think, turn her life around.

Outspoken, your life is in your hands. You can either sit around and feel sorry for yourself, or you can get off your touches and do something about it.

yes ma'am.


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"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
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YoelYitzchak
post Aug 18 2008, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 04:53 AM) *
I really believe you can overcome almost any obstacle with the right determination. But sink into self pity and apathy and you'll trip over a pebble.



That is so true for so much of life.
When I was a kid, I was very unhappy & decided it was silly to think positive, better to think negative so if something positive does occur, you'll be happily suprised, but if it doesn't, you won't be disappointed. What a bad philosophy that was! As I got older, I realized that if I thought positive, life was sooo much better!

Sometimes it's hard to believe the way I use to feel because it's now so foreign to me.


--------------------

It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh

Once, many moons ago when morals still existed.... - TDP

[Sephardic-Male] doesn't bother with facts - NY-LON

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Cassandra
post Aug 18 2008, 09:52 AM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 07:53 AM) *
There you go. You did it. So can anyone. I really believe you can overcome almost any obstacle with the right determination. But sink into self pity and apathy and you'll trip over a pebble.

That's ridiculous. Particularly the bolded part. One person overcoming their obstacles doesn't mean anyone else can overcome identical obstacles. It means that one person was lucky enough to be given the tools to overcome it and it is very detrimental for people to hear that.


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krumlikeapretzel
post Aug 18 2008, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Cassandra @ Aug 18 2008, 08:52 AM) *
That's ridiculous. Particularly the bolded part. One person overcoming their obstacles doesn't mean anyone else can overcome identical obstacles. It means that one person was lucky enough to be given the tools to overcome it and it is very detrimental for people to hear that.
Quoted for Truth.

It's just another argument for justifying the absolute indifference towards those who need help.
It's always "a test from god", "something you could overcome if you really wanted", "not as bad as you make it sound", etc.

The point is not whether someone can deal with something themselves or not, it's what it says about a privileged society that tells the less fortunate "deal with your problems yourselves and leave us alone."
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int
post Aug 18 2008, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 05:49 AM) *
On the British X Factor talent show I watched last night, (this was the first audtions, programme #1) a girl called Rachel sang like an angel and won 4 yesses from the judges including a "I really love you" from Simon Cowell. She was 26. Had her first baby at 13, went on to have four more, from different fathers, most of them drug dealers who got her hooked on cocaine and heroin. She spent two spells in jail for theft to fund her habit. Most of her children were either taken into care or adopted. I think only one child is with her. Anyone more likely to come under the heading of "damaged" is hard to imagine.


Actually she is not "damaged" at all. The way I understand "damaged" as used in this thread, is that it is referring to physically or mentally disabled people who simply can not do anything to change that fact. A healthy person who got addicted to drugs, had babies at a young age, etc. is still pretty healthy (after kicking the drug habit, which is certainly possible) and can thus be "feisty" and "positive". But someone who let's say has a debilitating disease that keeps them in pain most of the time and makes it impossible for them to function in normal society (while being perfectly sane, however) - then it is much more difficult or impossible to be "positive".


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Arizona
post Aug 18 2008, 10:18 AM
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QUOTE (int @ Aug 18 2008, 08:13 AM) *
Actually she is not "damaged" at all. The way I understand "damaged" as used in this thread, is that it is referring to physically or mentally disabled people who simply can not do anything to change that fact. A healthy person who got addicted to drugs, had babies at a young age, etc. is still pretty healthy (after kicking the drug habit, which is certainly possible) and can thus be "feisty" and "positive". But someone who let's say has a debilitating disease that keeps them in pain most of the time and makes it impossible for them to function in normal society (while being perfectly sane, however) - then it is much more difficult or impossible to be "positive".



Not really commenting on the main topic of the thread, but it made me think of a book I'm currently reading. The Miracle Next Door


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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE (Cassandra @ Aug 18 2008, 03:52 PM) *
That's ridiculous. Particularly the bolded part. One person overcoming their obstacles doesn't mean anyone else can overcome identical obstacles. It means that one person was lucky enough to be given the tools to overcome it and it is very detrimental for people to hear that.


OK OK ....but outspoken was also talking about himself...and he doesn't come into the physically or mentally disabled category. But I will acede that not everyone has the same tools to overcome obstacles.


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"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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krumlikeapretzel