Do not resuscitate |
![]() ![]() |
Do not resuscitate |
Aug 17 2008, 10:57 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
High on Life Group: Moderator Posts: 2,872 Joined: 15-June 03 Member No.: 80 |
What is ones halachic obligation if an ill person passes out and one notices s/he has a DNR bracelet (or notation on their chart)?
What if they're in your home? (i.e., you're in the middle of a meal and they pass out, do you call an ambulance?) Is there a difference if they're already in the hospital? (i.e., you're visiting and they crash, do you call the nurse?) On a similar note, would it make a difference whether you call 911 or hatzala? Does the hatzala crew abide by a DNR request? -------------------- Has the world started spinning in the other direction?
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:00 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 16,933 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
"Passes out" or drops dead???
-------------------- [/flirting]
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:04 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
High on Life Group: Moderator Posts: 2,872 Joined: 15-June 03 Member No.: 80 |
"Passes out" or drops dead??? if they drop dead, there isn't much to talk about -------------------- Has the world started spinning in the other direction?
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:06 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 9,825 Joined: 26-July 03 From: cornfieldland Member No.: 160 |
What if they're in your home? (i.e., you're in the middle of a meal and they pass out, do you call an ambulance?) Is there a difference if they're already in the hospital? (i.e., you're visiting and they crash, do you call the nurse?) calling for help is not resuscitation. -------------------- "If circumstances allowed it, even the most humble visitor would be granted an interview, during which he would listen patiently to him and then analyze his arguments and, if necessary, destroy them completely."
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:06 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 16,933 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
if they drop dead, there isn't much to talk about DNR is only applicable if their heart stops (or maybe stop breathing). If they are not YET at that point, as you said, there isn't much to talk about...... -------------------- [/flirting]
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:08 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
High on Life Group: Moderator Posts: 2,872 Joined: 15-June 03 Member No.: 80 |
calling for help is not resuscitation. is it if you call hatzala? do they have to do everything in their power to keep the person alive? -------------------- Has the world started spinning in the other direction?
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:10 AM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 16,933 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
is it if you call hatzala? do they have to do everything in their power to keep the person alive? If they are still alive??? Of course.... AFAIK a DNR means don't use artificial means to bring someone BACK, like defib, or respirators. But not to sit there and let someone die... -------------------- [/flirting]
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:15 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 9,825 Joined: 26-July 03 From: cornfieldland Member No.: 160 |
AFAIK a DNR means don't use artificial means to bring someone BACK, like defib, or respirators. or any form of CPR. -------------------- "If circumstances allowed it, even the most humble visitor would be granted an interview, during which he would listen patiently to him and then analyze his arguments and, if necessary, destroy them completely."
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:16 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
High on Life Group: Moderator Posts: 2,872 Joined: 15-June 03 Member No.: 80 |
If they are still alive??? Of course.... is not resuscitating the same as sitting there and letting someone die?
AFAIK a DNR means don't use artificial means to bring someone BACK, like defib, or respirators. But not to sit there and let someone die... -------------------- Has the world started spinning in the other direction?
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:17 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 16,933 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
or any form of CPR. Fine, but that is a big difference from someone "passing out", or leaving them until they get to the point where they NEED CPR, when they could have potentially been saved..... -------------------- [/flirting]
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:19 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
High on Life Group: Moderator Posts: 2,872 Joined: 15-June 03 Member No.: 80 |
Fine, but that is a big difference from someone "passing out", or leaving them until they get to the point where they NEED CPR, when they could have potentially been saved..... it's not just a random person who passed out; it's a terminally ill person wearing a DNR bracelet meaning that they knew and expected it to happen
-------------------- Has the world started spinning in the other direction?
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:19 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 16,933 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
is not resuscitating the same as sitting there and letting someone die? No, resuscitating means they are already clinically dead, and you are trying to make their heart beat again, or breathe for them artificially. It doesn't mean their pulse is weakening, and as their breathing is more shallow and you just sit there. (Or if they choke on a piece of kishke you don't do the Heimlich maneuver).... -------------------- [/flirting]
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:22 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 9,825 Joined: 26-July 03 From: cornfieldland Member No.: 160 |
Fine, but that is a big difference from someone "passing out", or leaving them until they get to the point where they NEED CPR depends why they "passed out." fainting from heat exhaustion isn't the same as collapsing from cardiac arrest. in the latter case, they're already at that point upon "passing out." in any case, DNR is an order to medical professionals, not laypeople. -------------------- "If circumstances allowed it, even the most humble visitor would be granted an interview, during which he would listen patiently to him and then analyze his arguments and, if necessary, destroy them completely."
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 11:24 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Group: Members Posts: 16,933 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Occupied Palestine Member No.: 407 |
depends why they "passed out." fainting from heat exhaustion isn't the same as collapsing from cardiac arrest. in the latter case, they're already at that point upon "passing out." in any case, DNR is an order to medical professionals, not laypeople. I already covered that possibility with my first post in this thread..... And we're talking about JEWS here, there ARE no "laypeople"....... -------------------- [/flirting]
|
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 09:00 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
|
What is ones halachic obligation if an ill person passes out and one notices s/he has a DNR bracelet (or notation on their chart)? What if they're in your home? (i.e., you're in the middle of a meal and they pass out, do you call an ambulance?) Is there a difference if they're already in the hospital? (i.e., you're visiting and they crash, do you call the nurse?) On a similar note, would it make a difference whether you call 911 or hatzala? Does the hatzala crew abide by a DNR request? To the average layperson, a person is automatically assumed to have a DO resuscitate status. In the hospital, before somene is made DNR, they have to have advanced directives signed, and there's a whole formal process that makes one officially DNR. Check out this link for US laws/info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_not_resusc...e#United_States |
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 09:23 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
|
Halachah-ly, Jews shouldn't have a DNR, that being said, if I am on duty (& actually, off duty I am still under a "duty to act" rule) I follow what the person has stipulated, so if they have a DNR, I call for back up, but will not do any CPR.
If I didn't have a "duty to act" when off duty...I don't know....but I'd have a hard time just standing around and not doing anything for someone. -------------------- It's like classic h.com discussions: He who does what I don't do is an ignorant fanatic and he who doesn't do what I do is beneath my religious contempt. - meleh Once, many moons ago when morals still existed.... - TDP [Sephardic-Male] doesn't bother with facts - NY-LON |
|
|
|
Aug 17 2008, 09:33 PM
Post
#17
|
|