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Ahava vs. Yira
Arizona
post Aug 17 2008, 04:55 PM
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Is it better to serve Hashem out of love or fear awe?

(Thank you to Shemmy for the important clarification.)


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Majorthinker
post Aug 17 2008, 05:11 PM
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Both are necessary.
Without love, there is no desire to cleave to Hashem and fulfill His mitzvot. There is no energy or enthusiasm in learning Torah l'shma.
Without fear, there is nothing to fall back on when the love is not at its strongest. There is nothing to stop someone from going overboard out of love of Hashem. There is nothing to stop someone from letting a ruach shtut take over.
Some groups lack love. Others lack fear. Both are necessary, and lack of either one is like flying with only one wing.


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על כל אחד ואחת להוסיף בתורה ובמצוות כדי להכריע את עצמו ואת כל העולם כולו לכף זכות!
'It is every Jew's duty to add in Torah and mitzvot in order to bring the geula.'
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Moshi
post Aug 17 2008, 05:15 PM
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Why is either necessary?


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Arizona
post Aug 17 2008, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (Majorthinker @ Aug 17 2008, 03:11 PM) *
Both are necessary.
Without love, there is no desire to cleave to Hashem and fulfill His mitzvot. There is no energy or enthusiasm in learning Torah l'shma.
Without fear, there is nothing to fall back on when the love is not at its strongest. There is nothing to stop someone from going overboard out of love of Hashem. There is nothing to stop someone from letting a ruach shtut take over.
Some groups lack love. Others lack fear. Both are necessary, and lack of either one is like flying with only one wing.



Very nice but not really answering the question.

Are you saying they should both be exactly equal?

If not, which one should be dominant? Is it preferrable to serve mostly out of fear or mostly out of love?

Oh, and I disagree that without love, there is no desire to fulfill mitvahs, etc. I think if one had true yira, she/he would be practically unable to do anything but fulfill Hashem's will and the mitzvahs would be as constant as humanly possible.


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Majorthinker
post Aug 17 2008, 05:19 PM
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I did not say that without love there is no fulfillment of mitzvot. I said that there is no desire to. Without love, one fulfills mitzvot- so that he won't get punished. He does not want to fulfill mitzvot, he is forced to.
I am not sure which, if any, should be dominant. But until one reaches a high level of both, then they should be equal. Then he can choose the dominant one.


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על כל אחד ואחת להוסיף בתורה ובמצוות כדי להכריע את עצמו ואת כל העולם כולו לכף זכות!
'It is every Jew's duty to add in Torah and mitzvot in order to bring the geula.'
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Arizona
post Aug 17 2008, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Aug 17 2008, 03:15 PM) *
Why is either necessary?


Are you saying that it neither is necessary in the sense that it is possible to have only yira (and ahava is unnecessary) or only ahava (and yira is unnessary)? Or, are you saying that it possible to serve Hashem having neither yira nor ahava?

QUOTE (Majorthinker @ Aug 17 2008, 03:19 PM) *
I did not say that without love there is no fulfillment of mitzvot. I said that there is no desire to. Without love, one fulfills mitzvot- so that he won't get punished. He does not want to fulfill mitzvot, he is forced to.
I am not sure which, if any, should be dominant. But until one reaches a high level of both, then they should be equal. Then he can choose the dominant one.


Thanks for the explanation.

How does one reach a high level of both without first working on one and then the other? Is it possible to develop both simultaneously and equally? If not, one has be chose to cultivate before the other.


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existwhere?
post Aug 17 2008, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Aug 17 2008, 06:15 PM) *
Why is either necessary?

Because it is necessary for us to cleave to Hashem.


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Majorthinker
post Aug 17 2008, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Arizona @ Aug 17 2008, 06:35 PM) *
Are you saying that it neither is necessary in the sense that it is possible to have only yira (and ahava is unnecessary) or only ahava (and yira is unnessary)? Or, are you saying that it possible to serve Hashem having neither yira nor ahava?



Thanks for the explanation.

How does one reach a high level of both without first working on one and then the other? Is it possible to develop both simultaneously and equally? If not, one has be chose to cultivate before the other.

An innate level of Ahava and Yira is given as a gift to each Yid. You just have to wake it up, and then you can start cultivating the higher levels.


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על כל אחד ואחת להוסיף בתורה ובמצוות כדי להכריע את עצמו ואת כל העולם כולו לכף זכות!
'It is every Jew's duty to add in Torah and mitzvot in order to bring the geula.'
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Melech
post Aug 17 2008, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Moshi @ Aug 17 2008, 06:15 PM) *
Why is either necessary?

Because each is an obligatory mitzvah d'orayta - both ahavat Hashem and yir'at Hashem.
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Arizona
post Aug 17 2008, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Majorthinker @ Aug 17 2008, 04:13 PM) *
An innate level of Ahava and Yira is given as a gift to each Yid. You just have to wake it up, and then you can start cultivating the higher levels.



How do you cultivate both simultaneously.


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Moshi
post Aug 17 2008, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (melech @ Aug 17 2008, 07:15 PM) *
Because each is an obligatory mitzvah d'orayta - both ahavat Hashem and yir'at Hashem.


Right, which means they are important in their own right -- not necessarily as aides towards other goals.


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Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

Why won't my wife let me pee against the fence when we have company for a barbecue? -melech

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Shemmy
post Aug 17 2008, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Arizona @ Aug 17 2008, 05:55 PM) *
Is it better to serve Hashem out of love or fear?


I think your conflating and/or confusing yira and pahad. Yira is fear in the sense of "awe." The English language doesn't commonly use "fear" in this context anymore. On the other hand, fear, as in terror, fear of punishment, etc - that would be pahad.


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YoelYitzchak
post Aug 17 2008, 09:35 PM
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As is typical for me, I see terms here I don't know. This is what I found for "Yira" (bolding is mine):

Expert: Rabbi Moss
Date: 3/29/2004
Subject: God Fearing

Question
What is meant by a g-d fearing person? and why is there such an emphasis on fearing hashem when there is also a great emphasis on loving hashem?


Answer
Good question
Fear has negative connotations in English, but the Hebrew term "Yira" is quite different. It maybe should be translated as "awe".
Loving Hashem means that we serve Him because we feel He "deserves" it. We appreciate what He has done for us, we feel grateful towards Him and realise that there is nothing as beautiful and fulfilling as being close to Hashem.
But what about when we aren't in the mood. What happens when we don't feel so passionate about being good and acting holy and morally. Do we drop it and wait for another moment of inspiration?
No. That's when a sense of awe has to kick in. We don't do what's right just because we feel like it, or because we are passionate about it. We do what's right because that's what G-d wants. I may not be in the mood, I may not want to, but my sense of awe in G-d's presence will keep me in line.
There has to be a balance. We develop our love for Hashem by meditating on the fact that He created us, and sustains us, which by definition means that He loves us and cares for us. His closeness to us engenders a sense of love. But then we are reminded how awesome He is, that He can't be contained or described or defined, that we are so far from Him. His distance and awesomeness engender "yira".
Someone who only serves out of fear will eventually become resentful, because they are constantly negating themselves. But someone who serves only out of love will waver, because one day they will wake up without "that loving feeling" and they will have nothing.
That's why the Zohar describes love and fear as the two wings that our mitzvahs use to fly up to heaven.
All the best
Rabbi Moss


To me, there is a great deal of difference between "fear" and "awe". I always have love and awe for HaShem - I will admit I don't always fear...there tends to be more "fear" around The High Holy Days....and more awe as well biggrin.gif

ETA: I must have been posting the same time as Shemmy!


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RebPropagandist
post Aug 17 2008, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Arizona @ Aug 17 2008, 09:55 AM) *
Is it better to serve Hashem out of love or fear?

What's there to love? (all due respect.)


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"Shake off all the fears and servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787

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Majorthinker
post Aug 17 2008, 10:19 PM
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What's there not to love???


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על כל אחד ואחת להוסיף בתורה ובמצוות כדי להכריע את עצמו ואת כל העולם כולו לכף זכות!
'It is every Jew's duty to add in Torah and mitzvot in order to bring the geula.'
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Arizona
post Aug 17 2008, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Shemmy @ Aug 17 2008, 06:56 PM) *
I think your conflating and/or confusing yira and pahad. Yira