When turning off the lights before saying havdalah, is it a requirement according to all opinions for the person turning off the lights to say the bracha "hamavdil bein kodesh l'chol"?


Also, why is it ok to say this short bracha, then do melacha, and then repeat what seems to be the same bracha in its longer form? Why are we repeating bracha?

Thanks!

Yes, because otherwise it's still technically shabbos for them (unless they davened maariv and said atah chonantanu)


Because there is a special mitzvah of doing both kiddush and havdalah on a kos, even when you've done them otherwise before, and the bracha is part of the nussach that was set for havdalah on a kos.

I think that yes, before turning off lights and even getting the havdalah stufff [which is muktzeh] and certainly lighting the havdalah candle, one needs to have either said baruch hamavdil or have davened the amidah and said atah chonantanu. As far as I know. That's what we do in our home and I know off hand of no opinions to the contrary. However, technically, once one has said barechu, I think some "minor" things are permitted - for example, a mourner taking off his shoes.

Once you have said baruch hamavdil or said atah chonantanu, it's not a berachah levatalah to say havdalah on wine because that's a totally separate obligation - regardless that you have ended shabbat with a short statement, you still have a totally different obligation to say havdalah with wine.
As far as I know.

Note that even after saying baruch hamavdil and atah chonantanu some only do "small melachot" at that point, but not "major melachot", but I think that's basically a minhag.

ETA: what krum said

and if someone turns down the lights without saying the short bracha, are they actually being machalel shabbos?

is turning down lights necessarily a desecration? assuming it is, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a way out. I'd have to look for it, though. After all, I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't say anything and answer the phone right after shabbos. Note as well that almost any verbalization would probably suffice - that's why some people will, for example, say shavua tov or gut voch to someone secular, b/c when they respond, that's probably technically good enough. So the question I guess is if someone doesn't verbalize something, if they only think in their minds, "shabbat must be over now, so I'll answer the phone" if that's good enough. I don't know.

You could be melamed zchus that turning a light off is a shvus deshvus and since they're doing it so they can see the havdalah candle better it's shvus deshvus bemakom mitzvah. And, like melech said, saying "a gute voch" works too.

right, that's basically why i'm asking.. that and i asked someone to turn lights off before havdalah, and someone else said "wait you can't do that!".

hmm.

Is one mechalel shabbat if one does melacha between tzeit hakochavim and hamavdil (or atah chonantanu)? Or is there a different prohibition (and of what nature)?

That's a good question. I don't know. You're probably not chayav d'orayta, right? What do you think?

actualy, considering that we, for instance, break shabbos when tisha b'av occures on sunday by lighting the havdala candle, I think that there is a special association between the havdala candle and being allowed to do malacha. its supposed to be the first malacha that you do, and therefore, it may stand to reason that the process of lighting a havdalah candle is an act of havdalah in and of itself.

(just my two cents)

It didn't feel deoraita to me. So I looked in Rambam and SA, Rambam says that Havdala is deoraita (Shabbat 29:1) but the Maggid Mishna says there are opinions that it's derabbanon. If the latter, game over. Even if the former it doesn't seem to me that a mitzvat aseh to say havdala means it's really still Shabbat. There are two views in the Rema on OC 299:10, the first forbidding all work, the second forbidding only "real work" such as writing and weaving, and even though he prefers the first, that he allows for the second implies that the prohibition (whatever its extent) is rabbinical, and the Mishneh Berurah (sk 33) also says that the prohibition of work before havdala is rabbinical.

Anything there about a mental declaration or a "shavua tov" sufficing?

I didn't come across it. I'd go with "baruch hamavdil bein kodesh lechol" lechatchilah and accept anything verbal that indicates it's no longer Shabbat bediavad (I didn't understand why it should be said to someone secular or why a response would be needed). I'm skeptical about nonverbal havdala.

The teshuvah had to do with, for example, taking a taxi or getting in a bus driven by someone secular - until he separates the holy from the profane, for him it's still shabbat and you as the passenger are benefiting.

In that case there's the additional question of if one needs to refrain from benefiting from someone else's violation of a derabbanon. And wouldn't this issue hold until halfway thru the week?

Wait... what about breaking shabbos to light the candle on TBA? How do you break shabbos?