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Serving wine in the company of non-Jews/pre-geirus, split from Girl turns out not to be Jewish (yet)
lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Bezalel @ Aug 18 2008, 10:01 PM) *
More or less. Non-Jews are not supposed to observe the Sabbath in the same manner as Jews, and therefore she should do at least one malacha during the day. That may be done privately, without publicizing it, though some people seem to be excited to learn that there is a convert-in-training in their community and then publicize that fact to anyone needing a "Shabbos goy." (E.g., "Oh, your stove didn't shut off; I'll grab Debbie at shul and send her over to you -- she's not Jewish yet.") I wouldn't do that, because I would feel that it's embarrassing the convert-in-training, but others think that you are giving her the opportunity to help someone.

In addition to letting someone know if he were to ask her out, there's at least one other case where it might be helpful to tell someone. I understand that it's not a problem to have a non-Jew over for a Shabbos meal, as you won't be cooking on Shabbos, but that it's more problematic to have a non-Jew over for a Yom Tov meal. Jews are allowed to cook on Yom Tov for themselves and for other Jews, but not for non-Jews. So some people are makpid not to have non-Jewish guests. I think I've heard some say that you can get around this by not making food based precisely on the number of guests, for example, not making 1/4 pound of meat for each of ten guests. But one should ask his Local Orthodox Rabbi. I have seen rabbis who did not invite their converts-in-training for a Yom Tov meal, but telling the students that it would be okay for them to accept an invitation extended by someone else.


There is a problem with having a ger in training for a Shabbos meal cos it affected us when we had one. It involves giving him from the wine (which he isn't allowed to touch) and having him partake of lechem mishnah. I can't remember exactly what happened but I remember being cringeworthily embarrassed about it, but MH just dealt with it in a matter of fact way.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 05:25 PM) *
There is a problem with having a ger in training for a Shabbos meal cos it affected us when we had one. It involves giving him from the wine (which he isn't allowed to touch) and having him partake of lechem mishnah. I can't remember exactly what happened but I remember being cringeworthily embarrassed about it, but MH just dealt with it in a matter of fact way.

why should there be a problem with the wine? a noachide can touch jewish wine and doesn't pogum it, how much more so a jew in training.

I mean, there is absolutely no concern here that he's an idolterer.


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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 18 2008, 10:27 PM) *
why should there be a problem with the wine? a noachide can touch jewish wine and doesn't pogum it, how much more so a jew in training.

I mean, there is absolutely no concern here that he's an idolterer.


There was definitely an issue with the wine and the challah. Blowed if I can remember now.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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p_almonius
post Aug 18 2008, 05:07 PM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 19 2008, 12:35 AM) *
There was definitely an issue with the wine and the challah. Blowed if I can remember now.

The challah? Could you ask your husband to explain?


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I am DEMANDING that the Rabbonim start screaming about this.
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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (p_almonius @ Aug 18 2008, 11:07 PM) *
The challah? Could you ask your husband to explain?


I'll ask him the minute he comes back from maariv.

ETA: OK. He said the problem was that until a goy becomes Jewish he is not allowed to parttake in shiurei mitzvah; the remnants of a mitzvah. So he wasn't allowed to have a piece of bread that came from lechem mishnah. He had to be given another piece of challah after the lechem mishnah had been distributed. As to the wine, it was mevushal, and he had his own glass and didn't drink from the becher, so there was no problem but again he had to be given some wine after MH had distributed the wine from kiddush.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 05:31 PM
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bump! Yoo Hoo! I asked him and got an answer!


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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Arizona
post Aug 18 2008, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 03:31 PM) *
bump! Yoo Hoo! I asked him and got an answer!



So? Nu?


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p_almonius
post Aug 18 2008, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 19 2008, 01:11 AM) *
He said the problem was that until a goy becomes Jewish he is not allowed to parttake in shiurei mitzvah; the remnants of a mitzvah.

I'm going to sleep so there's no need for haste, but I would appreciate at his convenience a source for that.


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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (Arizona @ Aug 18 2008, 11:36 PM) *
So? Nu?


So at my age, time is money tongue.gif


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 06:11 PM) *
I'll ask him the minute he comes back from maariv.

ETA: OK. He said the problem was that until a goy becomes Jewish he is not allowed to parttake in shiurei mitzvah; the remnants of a mitzvah. So he wasn't allowed to have a piece of bread that came from lechem mishnah. He had to be given another piece of challah after the lechem mishnah had been distributed. As to the wine, it was mevushal, and he had his own glass and didn't drink from the becher, so there was no problem but again he had to be given some wine after MH had distributed the wine from kiddush.

and I would appriciate at his convenience a source for a noachide rendering our wine "yayin netzach"

my kitzur at least says "avodas k'chavim" which would tend to exclude a noachide. I'll have to look it up though.


--------------------
"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (p_almonius @ Aug 18 2008, 11:38 PM) *
I'm going to sleep so there's no need for haste, but I would appreciate at his convenience a source for that.


I will ask him.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 06:29 PM
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Taz Orach Chayim 167: 18

Tosfos Yomtov Bechorot 5:6


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 06:30 PM
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lyric, I would strongly suggest that your husband look back up siman 124 in yoreh deah (sif 2), and bear in mind that in a case like this, its likely that kavod habriyos prohibits us from being machmir, although I don't see why you can't pass the cut to him last and tell him to finish everything that is there, at least from the point of view of yayin netzach.

(I didn't understand fully, but I think I understood the gist of it enough to say this. please correct me if I'm wrong.)


--------------------
"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 19 2008, 12:30 AM) *
lyric, I would strongly suggest that your husband look back up siman 124 in yoreh deah (sif 2), and bear in mind that in a case like this, its likely that kavod habriyos prohibits us from being machmir, although I don't see why you can't pass the cut to him last and tell him to finish everything that is there, at least from the point of view of yayin netzach.

(I didn't understand fully, but I think I understood the gist of it enough to say this. please correct me if I'm wrong.)


Re yayin Netzach my husband refused even to give the sources, he said it's obvious that a goy mustn't touch non mevushal wine.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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outspoken
post Aug 18 2008, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (lyric @ Aug 18 2008, 07:33 PM) *
Re yayin Netzach my husband refused even to give the sources, he said it's obvious that a goy mustn't touch non mevushal wine.

well the shulchan aruch says that with a ger who hasn't toiveled yet it isn't obvious, and the custome is to be lenient. (or at least the shach and taz does.)


--------------------
"well has beruria spoken"
"be kind to the newbies, or Sporky R will come to get you."
"when our dreams die, we die" ~Mrs. Ramen
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lyric
post Aug 18 2008, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (outspoken @ Aug 19 2008, 12:30 AM) *
lyric, I would strongly suggest that your husband look back up siman 124 in yoreh deah (sif 2), and bear in mind that in a case like this, its likely that kavod habriyos prohibits us from being machmir, although I don't see why you can't pass the cut to him last and tell him to finish everything that is there, at least from the point of view of yayin netzach.

(I didn't understand fully, but I think I understood the gist of it enough to say this. please correct me if I'm wrong.)


Kavod Habriyos doesn't mean we can do things that are wrong; we just have to do the right thing in a very bekovodike way. As we did with this ger in training. He kept coming back to us so he can't have been that offended by our treatment.


--------------------
"Mommy, is this the house where we are allowed to swing on the chairs, or the house where we're not allowed to swing on the chairs?"
- My three year old granddaughter.

There is being a real father, and there is being in the same room as your wife when she conceives.
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