And again you read too much into things. No one is accusing anyone of racism - rather of using words that could have a racist connotation in a very casual manner - and yet being offended when they are used in print on an anonymous forum. I am talking about political correctness here, not racism. Let's face it - as Jackie Mason pointed out when he was called down for describing Dinkins as a "schvartzer" - schvartzer means black, just as langer means tall and gresser means heavy. Now schvartzer gonif (or for that matter the obscure "shvug"), langer loksh and gresser chozzer are all a different matter - those are derogatory and the first is racist. We are proud Jews, and we often use Yiddish in our daily English speech - or in the case of Syrians, Halabi Jewish dialect slips into English conversation. Sadly, though, there are some frum people, in particular those in certain communities who live alongside black people, who do use the N word as if it were "schvartzer," without thinking as to the consequences or the meaning of that word to blacks.

But as for schvartzer itself, it is only the liberal PC crowd that has turned that into a slur - if I said that Nelson Mandela (who according to some might merit a ymach shmo for other reasons, but that's beside the point) was the first schvartz president of South Africa, I would be completely in the right and unoffensive - until the PC crowd came along and decided to turn a harmless Yiddish word into a slur.

It doesn't make a difference who made it a slur. The fact is it's a slur.
And the context in which you used it made very clear what you meant. But you just don't know when to stop.

in my college yiddish textbook the word for a black person is "negger" (nun/ayin/gimmel/ayin/reish). when i asked why not shvartser, he told me that shvartser was too racist and that negger was the preferred term.

I saw this very issue disccused here.

nigro please

nigro please

Neger? I don't know whether to laugh or to cry - that supposedly PC term is so close to the offensive N word that I cannot believe ANYONE would ever use it!

And I used Schvartzer in its CORRECT context - a black man (schvartzeh being a black woman). Everyone else read something into my subtle PARODY of politically correct language and the way schvartzer has become derogatory when it should not be.

It was hard to view your comment as a joke. There was nothing funny about it. It was much easier to view it as an insult to a fellow Jew.

What's your point? Whatever the original meaning of the word, today it is a slur. As well, you claimed that all of us use other slurs. Clearly you don't have a problem with racist language - why pretend?

According to the black people I know, the 'n' word, negro, shvartza and all those other words are derogatory. African American sounds PC and is not always apropriate for black people (ever hear of Haiti etc.). The only good term is 'black'. Not people of color or any of that PC bull. Black. Just like I'm white, my friend Kevin is black. If skin color really isn't a factor if a person is superior or not, then it's okay to say that my skin is white and a friend of mine's is black. The black people who get offended when people use the term 'black' subconciously think it's better to be white.

in vis is "black" af-yiddish? SCHVARTZ! In a black person - SCHVARTZER!

Those of us who call horseradish "chrein" in our daily speech should not react to the use of "schvartzer" in place of "black" unless the former is used in a derogatory fashion. I have you schmeggeges wound up so tight it isn't funny! Some of you probably have a guilty conscience for harbouring racist thoughts and opinions!

HaRav Natan Gamedze is black. In Yiddish black is schvartz. Schvartz is not the name of a nationality. It is a descriptive word. And we who are proud of our heritage should not be afraid to use Yiddish (or Ladino, or Hebrew, or Syrian Jewish) slang in our informal speech.

HoRov (oder der rov) Natan Gamedze iz a schvartzer yid - how do you like that?

I think the textbook Jake cited is extreme. It has correctly been pointed out that the word is not inherently a slur. In fact, in the context of Yiddish, whether in conversation of print, it cannot be considered a slur if used just as the terms black or African-American would be. Inventing a word to replace it (especially one that really sounds almost identical to a really bad slur) is a bit nuts.

That said, a term is a slur when it is considered one, not if lmty decides it's origin is honorable or not.

(The last place I expected to find Mick Taylor was here. )

I hear what you are saying. But you are wrong and I'll tell you why. True, English speaking Jews use Yiddishisms in their English all the time. But "schvartzer" is taken as a slur by black people while "chrein" doesn't bother the horseradish. Black people know when they're being slurred the same way Jews instinctively know when they are not being spoken of in a nice manner. It has nothing to do with political correctness of Jesse Jackson. The real problem is using that word when you speak English. It offends people, you can't deny that. As I said in my post above, it should not be considered a slur when used in normal context in Yiddish.

Anyway, we're losing site of the particular context of your post. To speak of a ger this way almost certainly violates the spirit of the various deoraisas which treat how Jews are expected to relate to a convert. Even if you truly meant no harm it may be a good idea to try to put yourselves in other shoes. Can you truly believe that the ger in question feels welcomed into bnei yisrael by the way you referred to him?

This post has been edited by shim: Mar 3 2005, 12:58 PM

It's not derogatory to use shvartz as an adjective just like it's fine to say someone is black. However it's derogatory to call someone a shvatzer just as it's derogatory to call someone a black (noun) because then you are defining them by their skin color. I am not a white - I am a white person. See the distinction?

Now we have a problem of English vs Yiddish semantics. SchvartzER = black man. SchvartzEH = black woman. Langer = a tall man. Langeh = a tall woman. But these 2 forms are also adjectives (I think) - a shvartzer ketz = a black cat. "He is black" might be an OK description if you just want to identify someone for whatever reason. "HE is a black" sounds strange. "He's a black man, about 180 cms tall, 90 kgs, glasses..." is a perfect way to identify someone - and, in the confines of a yeshiva, shul or this board, so is "He's a schvartzer, about 6 ft tall, 200 pounds, glasses..." (again, assuming that you regularly refer to horseradish as chrein - and actually the Syrian abeed might be more problematic given its unpleasant roots cf Hebrew eved - but I understand it is the standard Arabic word for a black person which says an awful lot right there .)

You run into trouble only if you use these words in a derogatory way = the schvartzers went wild in Crown Heights in 1991 is absolutely unacceptable. I was just winding everyone up by stating a fact and seeing how everyone would respond - Rav Natan Gamedze is of course a ger tzedek and therefore a Jew - but physically he remains a schvartzer = a black man! Perhaps I should have simply said "He converted al pi halacha, but he remains a schvartzer" and then sat back to watch the reactions - would people have been offended, or bewildered? Schvartzer is not a nationality - it is a description. And used correctly, it is not derogatory either - time for us to stop kowtowing to the PC leftist crowd who are often Jews without Jewish pride in any case .

Imty--There was no need to even make a comment on the color of the man's skin. You know full well that the term "schvartze" is derogatory no matter how many Rabbis/Rebbes use the term. He has a name, and his name should be used to refer to him. Especially since he is apparantely a Talmud Chacham. If you would refer to Rav Eliyashiv as "Eliyashiv," than do not refer to Rabbi Natan Gamedze as a schvartze, unless of course you are so crude that you would use the term to his face.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((YAWN))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) I did not refer to him as a "schvartzer"; I described him as being a black man who will always be a black man. It is YOU who are reading far too much into the word "schvartzer"!

And if Rav Elyashiv were to describe the physical characteristics of Rav Gamedze, he would use the term SCHVARTZ(ER) - so there! And I would have no trouble going up to any English speaking frum yid in Tzfas and asking who that "schvartzer" is if I did not recognise Rav Gamedze from the pictures on the web. Of course, if I were speaking Hebrew, I would use "kushi".

Sure you did.