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Avram Vs. Avraham, 13A
critic
post Mar 14 2005, 03:57 PM
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There is an arguement in the gemara that says that if someone calls Avraham 'Avram,' they're either violating an asei, or a lo sasei (positive or negative commandment, respectively). How come this mitzva doesn't appear in the Rambam's count of the 613 mitzvot? Or anyone elses for that matter?


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shim
post Mar 14 2005, 04:00 PM
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There are many more tzivuim in the Torah than 613 (if you were to make a count yourself you'd see), but we have a mesorah that there are taryag mitzvos. Those rishonim who made lists of mitzvos were trying to compile what they felt were the taryag mitzvos meant. If you think about it, the fact that one could count a mitzvah he found in the Torah that another didn't count demonstrates that there are more than 613 actual commands in the Torah.
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critic
post Mar 14 2005, 04:01 PM
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True. BTW, where is the source that there are exactly 613 mitzvot in the torah? I know everyone says there is, but does the Torah itself say there are 613? What's the earliest source?


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shim
post Mar 14 2005, 04:02 PM
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I'm sure Melech knows exactly, but whether the earliest source is an early midrash or a mishna or the gemara I am not sure.
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shim
post Mar 14 2005, 04:05 PM
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It reminds me a little of the statement (from the Zohar?) that "yesh shishim ribuy osiyos la-torah", when in fact the amount is just half that. Of course taryag mitzvos is a bit different. Its definitely a given that there are "taryag mitzvos", however one counts them. That's not an esoteric concept the way 600,000 letters are.
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Melech
post Mar 14 2005, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (critic @ Mar 14 2005, 04:01 PM)
True.  BTW, where is the source that there are exactly 613 mitzvot in the torah?  I know everyone says there is, but does the Torah itself say there are 613?  What's the earliest source?
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Makkot 23b 4 lines from the bottom.
But R. Simlai, a third century CE Amora, isn't the earliest source. It's also in the Mechilta, Sifri, and various tannaic midrashim. It's an ancient tradition.
(If I recall correctly, the Pri Megadim in his introduction to his Shulchan Aruch commentary, the one recently annotated by R. Eisenberger, goes through some of the sources).
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shim
post Mar 14 2005, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (critic @ Mar 14 2005, 03:57 PM)
There is an arguement in the gemara that says that if someone calls Avraham 'Avram,' they're either violating an asei, or a lo sasei (positive or negative commandment, respectively).  How come this mitzva doesn't appear in the Rambam's count of the 613 mitzvot?  Or anyone elses for that matter?
*

Your question still stands. Maybe the reason why no one counts this one among their taryag is because the machlokes about whether it is a positive or negative commandment is unresolved.
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Pure Myrrh
post Mar 14 2005, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (critic @ Mar 14 2005, 03:57 PM)
There is an arguement in the gemara that says that if someone calls Avraham 'Avram,' they're either violating an asei, or a lo sasei (positive or negative commandment, respectively).  How come this mitzva doesn't appear in the Rambam's count of the 613 mitzvot?  Or anyone elses for that matter?
*

Not every opinion stated in the Talmud is considered as law!


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post Mar 14 2005, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (shim @ Mar 14 2005, 04:13 PM)
QUOTE (critic @ Mar 14 2005, 03:57 PM)
There is an arguement in the gemara that says that if someone calls Avraham 'Avram,' they're either violating an asei, or a lo sasei (positive or negative commandment, respectively).  How come this mitzva doesn't appear in the Rambam's count of the 613 mitzvot?  Or anyone elses for that matter?
*

Your question still stands. Maybe the reason why no one counts this one among their taryag is because the machlokes about whether it is a positive or negative commandment is unresolved.
*


There's a footnote in the gilyon hashas to look at Magen Avraham Siman 156. I don't have access to one, can someone look it up?
http://www.e-daf.com/daf.asp?ID=23 (bottom left)


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Melech
post Mar 14 2005, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (critic @ Mar 14 2005, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE (shim @ Mar 14 2005, 04:13 PM)
QUOTE (critic @ Mar 14 2005, 03:57 PM)
There is an arguement in the gemara that says that if someone calls Avraham 'Avram,' they're either violating an asei, or a lo sasei (positive or negative commandment, respectively).  How come this mitzva doesn't appear in the Rambam's count of the 613 mitzvot?  Or anyone elses for that matter?
*

Your question still stands. Maybe the reason why no one counts this one among their taryag is because the machlokes about whether it is a positive or negative commandment is unresolved.
*


There's a footnote in the gilyon hashas to look at Magen Avraham Siman 156. I don't have access to one, can someone look it up?
http://www.e-daf.com/daf.asp?ID=23 (bottom left)
*


The MA doesn't seem to clarify anything - he quotes the gemara but without further clarification.
(I couldn't find the other reference in the Gilyon HaShas, which I assume means the Pri Chadash at the end of siman 66 - I didn't see anything there relavent).
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Sweet
post Mar 15 2005, 01:50 PM
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I don't have a gemara in front of me, but I believe that when I learned it I noticed a commentator in the back asked that. (maharsho?)


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krumlikeapretzel
post Mar 15 2005, 02:36 PM
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[quo that says that
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Sweet
post Mar 16 2005, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (farshideneh greenstein @ Mar 15 2005, 02:50 PM)
I don't have a gemara in front of me, but I believe that when I learned it I noticed a commentator in the back asked that. (maharsho?)
*

Actually, it's the Maharatz Chayos, or however you pronounce it. He says something about mitzvos before Har Sinai.


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shim
post Mar 16 2005, 01:47 PM
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Maharatz Chayes went to college. Bah.
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krumlikeapretzel
post Mar 16 2005, 01:50 PM
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[quot
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