Reply to this topicStart new topic
barf
krumlikeapretzel
post Mar 20 2005, 11:37 AM
Post #1


Godol Hador
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,190
Joined: 6-March 05
Member No.: 1,237


Th
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pure Myrrh
post Mar 20 2005, 11:46 AM
Post #2


Newbie Emeritus
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 6,257
Joined: 27-September 04
From: Earth
Member No.: 710


QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 20 2005, 11:37 AM)
The Meharsho in Bava Metziah explains that the "machshavah beshas zivug" determines what kind of person the child is.
1. Why would the first thing someone sees coming out of the mikveh or what she's thinking beshas zivug determine the nature of the child?
*

Such is the power of thought. This is true not only for humans, but for animals as well. This is what occured when Ya'akov avinu placed the marked rods at the feeding troughs of the sheep so that they would produce offspring with similar markings.

If you're looking for a scientific (non-metaphysical) explanation for the mechanism through which this phenomenon works, good luck....


--------------------
Do you love the IRS? If so please do NOT support the FairTax proposal!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shim
post Mar 20 2005, 01:24 PM
Post #3


Godol Hador
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3,888
Joined: 24-June 03
Member No.: 101


QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 20 2005, 11:37 AM)
2. Why Rashi would not say the purpose of children being like R'Yochanan was so they would learn Torah? Is outside beauty that important? Doesn't the pasuk say "sheker hachein vehevel hayofi?
*

That's only half the passuk. It's a contrast. Without "yirash hashem" then those are sheker and hevel. But is the absolute worldview of Torah that physical beauty is sheker and hevel? Certainly not. In many places the physical beauty of people are pointed out. It's only false and empty if the person is false and empty.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
krumlikeapretzel
post Mar 20 2005, 01:39 PM
Post #4


Godol Hador
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,190
Joined: 6-March 05
Member No.: 1,237


avin.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shim
post Mar 20 2005, 01:43 PM
Post #5


Godol Hador
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3,888
Joined: 24-June 03
Member No.: 101


That seems strange. Its sort of like saying that the women should notice how handsome R. Yochannan was before they went home to their husband so they could have him in mind.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
krumlikeapretzel
post Mar 20 2005, 03:03 PM
Post #6


Godol Hador
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,190
Joined: 6-March 05
Member No.: 1,237


ange. sad.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
payel
post Mar 20 2005, 04:16 PM
Post #7


Gabbai
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 559
Joined: 8-May 03
Member No.: 34


This story is the basis a custom that we have today, whereby the mikvah lady says some kind words to a women when she emerges from the mikvah.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nooch
post Mar 20 2005, 04:30 PM
Post #8


Dark Lord of The Sith
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,649
Joined: 14-May 03
From: A long time ago,in a galaxy far far away.
Member No.: 59


QUOTE (shim @ Mar 20 2005, 01:43 PM)
That seems strange. Its sort of like saying that the women should notice how handsome R. Yochannan was before they went home to their husband so they could have him in mind.
*



QUOTE (payel @ Mar 20 2005, 04:16 PM)
This story is the basis a custom that we have today, whereby the mikvah lady says some kind words to a women when she emerges from the mikvah.
*


In line with what Payel is saying. The fact is we dont want the woman to see an impure thing when she comes out of the mikvah. It has a hashpa'ah. So we try to arrange for her to see someone who is not "Tumeidik". The same with R' Yochanan. Its not that he wanted the women to be thinking of him pre se, but to have the impression of a Kadosh V'tahor on the woman,and its positive effects it has on the subconious. Which subsequently positively effected the concieved.


--------------------
"What we do in life, echos in eternity"
--------------
"You underestimate the power of the dark side!"-Lord Vader
"I find your lack of faith disturbing!"-Lord Vader
To the Mods: "Dont be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed..."-Lord Vader
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
critic
post Mar 20 2005, 04:34 PM
Post #9


Shtark
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 4-July 03
Member No.: 127


QUOTE (Mordechai @ Mar 20 2005, 11:46 AM)
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 20 2005, 11:37 AM)
The Meharsho in Bava Metziah explains that the "machshavah beshas zivug" determines what kind of person the child is.
1. Why would the first thing someone sees coming out of the mikveh or what she's thinking beshas zivug determine the nature of the child?
*

Such is the power of thought. This is true not only for humans, but for animals as well. This is what occured when Ya'akov avinu placed the marked rods at the feeding troughs of the sheep so that they would produce offspring with similar markings.

If you're looking for a scientific (non-metaphysical) explanation for the mechanism through which this phenomenon works, good luck....
*


I think this is the reason pregnant women aren't supposed to go to a zoo. We don't want their thoughts to focus on animals, causing for them to possibly take the form of an animal.


--------------------
cash value: 2 cents
I'm not rude. You're just thin skinned.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
critic
post Mar 20 2005, 04:36 PM
Post #10


Shtark
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 4-July 03
Member No.: 127


I think there's even a bigger question about R' Yochonan. The hagaot habach explains that the reason the gemara didn't ask about R' Yochonan's yetzer hara, but it did by R' Gidel was because R' Yochanan had very long eyelashes that completley blocked his vision.

How is that beautiful?


--------------------
cash value: 2 cents
I'm not rude. You're just thin skinned.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nooch
post Mar 20 2005, 04:38 PM
Post #11


Dark Lord of The Sith
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,649
Joined: 14-May 03
From: A long time ago,in a galaxy far far away.
Member No.: 59


QUOTE (critic @ Mar 20 2005, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE (Mordechai @ Mar 20 2005, 11:46 AM)
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 20 2005, 11:37 AM)
The Meharsho in Bava Metziah explains that the "machshavah beshas zivug" determines what kind of person the child is.
1. Why would the first thing someone sees coming out of the mikveh or what she's thinking beshas zivug determine the nature of the child?
*

Such is the power of thought. This is true not only for humans, but for animals as well. This is what occured when Ya'akov avinu placed the marked rods at the feeding troughs of the sheep so that they would produce offspring with similar markings.

If you're looking for a scientific (non-metaphysical) explanation for the mechanism through which this phenomenon works, good luck....
*


I think this is the reason pregnant women aren't supposed to go to a zoo. We don't want their thoughts to focus on animals, causing for them to possibly take the form of an animal.
*


I dont think its the form we're afraid of as much as the hashpa'ah of what they represent and how those midos can affect the vlad.


--------------------
"What we do in life, echos in eternity"
--------------
"You underestimate the power of the dark side!"-Lord Vader
"I find your lack of faith disturbing!"-Lord Vader
To the Mods: "Dont be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed..."-Lord Vader
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
critic
post Mar 20 2005, 04:40 PM
Post #12


Shtark
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 4-July 03
Member No.: 127


You are correct, that's what I meant.


--------------------
cash value: 2 cents
I'm not rude. You're just thin skinned.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nooch
post Mar 20 2005, 04:43 PM
Post #13


Dark Lord of The Sith
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,649
Joined: 14-May 03
From: A long time ago,in a galaxy far far away.
Member No.: 59


QUOTE (critic @ Mar 20 2005, 04:36 PM)
I think there's even a bigger question about R' Yochonan.  The hagaot habach explains that the reason the gemara didn't ask about R' Yochonan's yetzer hara, but it did by R' Gidel was because R' Yochanan had very long eyelashes that completley blocked his vision. 

How is that beautiful?
*

He was also HUGE!
The beauty refered to here is probably the glow and hadras panim of someone so kadosh and Tahor. Not necessarily the superficial physical beauty we think of.
Although, Reish Lakish was attracted to him on that superficial physical level. Maybe the kedushah influenced the physical attraction. Maybe fat men with long eyelashes were all the rage back then! tongue.gif Questons ! Questions!


--------------------
"What we do in life, echos in eternity"
--------------
"You underestimate the power of the dark side!"-Lord Vader
"I find your lack of faith disturbing!"-Lord Vader
To the Mods: "Dont be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed..."-Lord Vader
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
critic
post Mar 20 2005, 05:11 PM
Post #14


Shtark
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 4-July 03
Member No.: 127


Where do we see that he was fat?


--------------------
cash value: 2 cents
I'm not rude. You're just thin skinned.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nooch
post Mar 20 2005, 05:26 PM
Post #15


Dark Lord of The Sith
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,649
Joined: 14-May 03
From: A long time ago,in a galaxy far far away.
Member No.: 59


QUOTE (critic @ Mar 20 2005, 05:11 PM)
Where do we see that he was fat?
*

I forget the exact source. But the Gemorah describes his and Rav Hunah's girth.When the two stood belly to belly a herd of cattle could pass beneath them.


--------------------
"What we do in life, echos in eternity"
--------------
"You underestimate the power of the dark side!"-Lord Vader
"I find your lack of faith disturbing!"-Lord Vader
To the Mods: "Dont be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed..."-Lord Vader
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sweet
post Mar 20 2005, 09:55 PM
Post #16


formerly Bitter
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3,071
Joined: 2-November 04
Member No.: 763


QUOTE (Nooch @ Mar 20 2005, 06:26 PM)
QUOTE (critic @ Mar 20 2005, 05:11 PM)
Where do we see that he was fat?
*

I forget the exact source. But the Gemorah describes his and Rav Hunah's girth.When the two stood belly to belly a herd of cattle could pass beneath them.
*


That gemara is not about R' Yochanan. It is in B. Metzia 84a. The Gemara about R'Yochanan's girth? We learned it a week ago. He was allowed to lie on his back, since he was a Ba'al Bosor.


--------------------
Very clever, these Jews.--- melech
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pure Myrrh
post Mar 20 2005, 11:13 PM
Post #17


Newbie Emeritus
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 6,257
Joined: 27-September 04
From: Earth
Member No.: 710


QUOTE (critic @ Mar 20 2005, 04:34 PM)
I think this is the reason pregnant women aren't supposed to go to a zoo.  We don't want their thoughts to focus on animals, causing for them to possibly take the form of an animal.
*

Um....not counting National Enquirer articles, has this ever actually happened?


--------------------
Do you love the IRS? If so please do NOT support the FairTax proposal!
Go to the top of the page
 
+