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Once in a Blue Moon, Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh, 4,103
existwhere?
post Aug 21 2008, 07:38 PM
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There are two applications of remembering Hashem's Providence throughout the day. One application is when the occurrence is not a daily event, and the other applies to a daily occurrences.

We will begin with the first application. A person plans, for example, to purchase a table, chairs or the like. Preferably, before leaving the house, he should think to himself and say, "I am going to buy a table and chairs. I cannot really choose at all. Only Hashem will determine which table will I purchase. What I do and the choice I make will not make any difference at all, but nevertheless according to the level of hishtadlus (required effort) expected from me, I need to go about making a choice, as the Mesillas Yesharim says (ch. 21) that even though one puts forth effort, he must know that his effort does not really accomplish the result."

This is the perspective with which he should enter the store. Even when he is in the store and begins to select the table and chairs, he must keep in mind that his choice is like that of a monkey that acts as directed. He is not in control at all, because Hashem has already determined which table and chairs will enter his home.
http://bilvavi.net/content/view/283/32

"Even though we put forth effort, our efforts do not really accomplish the result." This is the great secret well-hidden in Olam Hazeh. We have to keep it hidden by doing our effort- but realize privately that we do not do anything ourselves.


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The Purpose Is Practice
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Dan
post Aug 21 2008, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (existwhere? @ Aug 21 2008, 07:38 PM) *
Even when he is in the store and begins to select the table and chairs, he must keep in mind that his choice is like that of a monkey that acts as directed. He is not in control at all, because Hashem has already determined which table and chairs will enter his home.
http://bilvavi.net/content/view/283/32


Since I'm sure people will ask, read here and here.


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If I am I because you are you
and you are you because I am I,
than I am not I
and you are not you.
However, if I am I because I am I,
and you are you because you are you
than I am indeed I
and you are indeed you.
-Kotzker
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bigtoe
post Aug 21 2008, 09:14 PM
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Thank you exist..it's a concept that niggles at the back of my brain whenever I have choices to make. This puts it into better perspective by 'putting it to words' if you will. They should make this on laminated index cards to take along with you daily. You know, one of those lesson-a-day things that lets you concentrate on one specific thought/action/teaching at a time. Great to study while in traffic on the way to work etc.


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"Life is a combination of magic and pasta."

-Federico Fellini



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Ahavati
post Aug 22 2008, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (existwhere? @ Aug 21 2008, 08:38 PM) *
He is not in control at all, because Hashem has already determined which table and chairs will enter his home.


i disagree with this. i do not believe that everything is predetermined. to believe this would be to believe that every sin borne of action was predestined and we're no more than lab animals resulting from the consequence of it. i, for one, do not believe i'm an experiment.


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int
post Aug 22 2008, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE
We will begin with the first application. A person plans, for example, to purchase a table, chairs or the like. Preferably, before leaving the house, he should think to himself and say, "I am going to buy a table and chairs. I cannot really choose at all. Only Hashem will determine which table will I purchase. What I do and the choice I make will not make any difference at all, but nevertheless according to the level of hishtadlus (required effort) expected from me, I need to go about making a choice, as the Mesillas Yesharim says (ch. 21) that even though one puts forth effort, he must know that his effort does not really accomplish the result."


But of course it does! For if there was no effort, then there would be no result. If he doesn't go into the store to get chairs he won't get them.

That's how we usually think of causes and effects. We say that A is a cause of B, if when A is removed B also doesn't happen.


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Dan
post Aug 22 2008, 06:04 PM
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Ahavati, int, please read the second post... and this. [the zohar discussing it has also been posted here]

Good Shabbos everybody


--------------------
If I am I because you are you
and you are you because I am I,
than I am not I
and you are not you.
However, if I am I because I am I,
and you are you because you are you
than I am indeed I
and you are indeed you.
-Kotzker
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int
post Aug 22 2008, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Dan @ Aug 22 2008, 07:04 PM) *
Ahavti, int, please read the second post... and this. [the zohar discussing it has also been posted here]

Good Shabbos everybody


I don't wanna read dozens of links. Just summarize what your opinion is here.


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Ahavati
post Aug 23 2008, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Dan @ Aug 22 2008, 07:04 PM) *
Ahavti, int, please read the second post... and this. [the zohar discussing it has also been posted here]

Good Shabbos everybody


Ahavati*


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Ahavati
post Aug 23 2008, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (Dan @ Aug 22 2008, 07:04 PM) *
Ahavti, int, please read the second post... and this. [the zohar discussing it has also been posted here]

Good Shabbos everybody


it's predestined we arrive home but not how. we can make it pleasant or difficult. the choice is ours.


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existwhere?
post Aug 23 2008, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Ahavati @ Aug 22 2008, 04:13 PM) *
i disagree with this. i do not believe that everything is predetermined. to believe this would be to believe that every sin borne of action was predestined and we're no more than lab animals resulting from the consequence of it. i, for one, do not believe i'm an experiment.

Our material world is predestined, just like the spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical gifts you were born with.
Your spiritual world is your choice.
That is the point of this sefer.
QUOTE (int @ Aug 22 2008, 05:21 PM) *
But of course it does! For if there was no effort, then there would be no result. If he doesn't go into the store to get chairs he won't get them.

That's how we usually think of causes and effects. We say that A is a cause of B, if when A is removed B also doesn't happen.

He said that in a previous section.


--------------------
"If they would allow one dead soul to visit an assembly of philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings."

The Purpose Is Practice
Updated 8 Teves 5769

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int
post Aug 23 2008, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (existwhere? @ Aug 23 2008, 10:07 PM) *
Our material world is predestined, just like the spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical gifts you were born with.
Your spiritual world is your choice.
That is the point of this sefer.


All the worlds are interconnected. You can't make only spiritual choices in this world, which is a mixture of spiritual and the physical.


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Dan
post Aug 24 2008, 12:12 AM
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The Emunah he is discussing (that everything is predestined) INCLUDES spiritual too. He is discussing revealing the yechida aspect of the nefesh. It is the aspect that will be fully revealed when Mashiach comes, and now that we're so close it is easier to achieve (to an extent). I know I keep saying this but its very hard to understand this without learning about it.. and to ask me to post it will be asking me to post a sefer worth of material...


--------------------
If I am I because you are you
and you are you because I am I,
than I am not I
and you are not you.
However, if I am I because I am I,
and you are you because you are you
than I am indeed I
and you are indeed you.
-Kotzker
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existwhere?
post Aug 24 2008, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (int @ Aug 24 2008, 12:41 AM) *
All the worlds are interconnected. You can't make only spiritual choices in this world, which is a mixture of spiritual and the physical.

True.
QUOTE (Dan @ Aug 24 2008, 01:12 AM) *
The Emunah he is discussing (that everything is predestined) INCLUDES spiritual too. He is discussing revealing the yechida aspect of the nefesh. It is the aspect that will be fully revealed when Mashiach comes, and now that we're so close it is easier to achieve (to an extent). I know I keep saying this but its very hard to understand this without learning about it.. and to ask me to post it will be asking me to post a sefer worth of material...

Thank you, sorry.


--------------------
"If they would allow one dead soul to visit an assembly of philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings."

The Purpose Is Practice
Updated 8 Teves 5769

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Dan
post Aug 24 2008, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE (existwhere? @ Aug 24 2008, 02:04 AM) *
Thank you, sorry.


Your welcome, nothing to be sorry about smile.gif It's a new concept!


--------------------
If I am I because you are you
and you are you because I am I,
than I am not I
and you are not you.
However, if I am I because I am I,
and you are you because you are you
than I am indeed I
and you are indeed you.
-Kotzker
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p_almonius
post Aug 24 2008, 02:57 AM
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So what is "the level of hishtadlus (required effort) expected from" a person?


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I am DEMANDING that the Rabbonim start screaming about this.
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Dan
post Aug 24 2008, 03:33 AM
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QUOTE (p_almonius @ Aug 24 2008, 03:57 AM) *
So what is "the level of hishtadlus (required effort) expected from" a person?

Check Michtav Meliyahu Volu