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New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
Fear rabbi gave tots herpes
By MAGGIE HABERMAN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Wednesday, February 2nd, 2005
City health officials are investigating whether a baby boy died after contracting herpes from the rabbi who circumcised him, the Daily News has learned.
The probe was launched after city officials realized that three infants in the city who tested positive for herpes last year all were circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer. The Rockland County-based Fischer is a prominent mohel - someone who performs religious circumcisions.
Under Jewish law, a mohel is supposed to draw blood from the circumcision wound to remove impurities. While many mohels do it by hand, Fischer uses a practice little known outside ultra-Orthodox communities called metzizah bi peh, in which the mohel uses his mouth.
On Oct. 16, 2004, Fischer performed a bris, or religious circumcision, on twins. Ten days later, one infant died of herpes, and the other tested positive for the virus, according to papers filed in Manhattan Supreme Court by city lawyers.
A few weeks later, city Health Department officials found a third baby, on Staten Island, who also tested positive for herpes after being circumcised by Fischer in late 2003, the papers say.
Herpes is far more dangerous to infants than adults because of babies' fragile immune systems. The health status of the two surviving boys was not clear yesterday.
The city "is concerned that the possible transmission of herpes simplex virus type 1 in infants may be continuing as a result of defendant's practice of metzizah bi peh," city lawyers wrote in the complaint, dated Dec. 22. "Defendant's conduct to date constitutes a threat to the public health."
The custom of metzizah is thousands of years old. But experts said that these days, many mohels breathe in through a sterile tube to draw the blood instead of using their mouths directly on the wound, although in some ultra-Orthodox sects, the oral practice is mandatory.
The city asked Fischer to submit to a blood test in November, and ordered him to stop performing metzizah by mouth while waiting for the results, court papers show. Officials told him to use a sterile tube and gloves in the meantime.
But the Health Department got a report that Fischer wasn't following the order, so the city filed the legal complaint to compel him do so.
Fischer, 66, declined to comment yesterday.
His lawyer, Mark Kurzmann, wouldn't say whether Fischer has done the blood test, citing medical confidentiality. But he said Fischer is "cooperating with the city's investigation to resolve this matter."
"My client is known internationally as a caring, skilled and conscientious mohel," Kurzmann said.
He suggested the babies could have contracted herpes elsewhere. He also said there are concerns about the government regulating religious practices.
City lawyers declined to comment.
Health officials, aware of the sensitivity of the issue, have been talking extensively to community leaders.
"There's been a constructive dialogue between the community and the Department of Health, and we're working with [them] to ensure the safety of all our city's children," said Arie Lipnic, spokesman for City Councilman Simcha Felder (D-Brooklyn).
Mohel Sued After Deaths
MultiQuote
#2
shim 
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:07 PM
First, this is a terrible tragedy. Second, I don't think the mohel should be singled out for blame per se (by us, not necessarily by law), as there is a segment of the Jewish population that attaches great importance to metzitza b'peh -- mistakenly in my view --and presumably the parents of these babies attach importance to a mohel that only uses his mouth. It could have happened to any other mohel that only does b'peh.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
#3
hashfanatic
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:46 PM
shim, on Feb 2 2005, 02:07 PM, said:
First, this is a terrible tragedy. Second, I don't think the mohel should be singled out for blame per se (by us, not necessarily by law), as there is a segment of the Jewish population that attaches great importance to metzitza b'peh -- mistakenly in my view --and presumably the parents of these babies attach importance to a mohel that only uses his mouth. It could have happened to any other mohel that only does b'peh.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused. Am I to understand that the mohel uses his TEETH?
Please PM me if the description is graphic.
#4
shim
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:59 PM
hashfanatic, on Feb 2 2005, 02:46 PM, said:
shim, on Feb 2 2005, 02:07 PM, said:
First, this is a terrible tragedy. Second, I don't think the mohel should be singled out for blame per se (by us, not necessarily by law), as there is a segment of the Jewish population that attaches great importance to metzitza b'peh -- mistakenly in my view --and presumably the parents of these babies attach importance to a mohel that only uses his mouth. It could have happened to any other mohel that only does b'peh.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused. Am I to understand that the mohel uses his TEETH?
Please PM me if the description is graphic.
No. There is an ancient Jewish custom that as soon as the bris is performed the mohel then sucks a little bit of blood out of the wound. Its purpose is similar to sucking venom from a snakebite. There was a concern that the knife was not sterile (to use an anachronism), or rather it was known that sometimes the baby would get sick as a result of the knife used. So blood is sucked out immediately after the bris. The halachic issue of whether one had to do metzitza with the mouth or if an instrument can be used arose over 150 years ago when much more about hygeine was known and issues like the story in the article arose. Today most mohelim either suck the blood out using a tube or syringe that draws a little blood out. Some only do the metzitza, the drawing out blood, only b'peh, with their mouths.
#5
politico
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 07:19 PM
shim, on Feb 2 2005, 02:07 PM, said:
First, this is a terrible tragedy. Second, I don't think the mohel should be singled out for blame per se (by us, not necessarily by law), as there is a segment of the Jewish population that attaches great importance to metzitza b'peh -- mistakenly in my view --and presumably the parents of these babies attach importance to a mohel that only uses his mouth. It could have happened to any other mohel that only does b'peh.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
maybe a poor comparison, but in the pornography industry actors are tested monthly and not permitted to continue working if they test positive for any STD. perhaps a similar standard should be imposed for mohelim.
"If circumstances allowed it, even the most humble visitor would be granted an interview, during which he would listen patiently to him and then analyze his arguments and, if necessary, destroy them completely."
#6
DJ_Tachlis
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 07:30 PM
OMG! Is that the fisher from monsey? He gave me a siddur for my bar mitsvah, he is a freind of the family. I feel so bad for him, he is a great man.
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 08:48 PM
politico, on Feb 2 2005, 07:19 PM, said:
maybe a poor comparison, but in the pornography industry
Oy!
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#8
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:07 PM
shim, on Feb 2 2005, 02:07 PM, said:
First, this is a terrible tragedy. Second, I don't think the mohel should be singled out for blame per se (by us, not necessarily by law), as there is a segment of the Jewish population that attaches great importance to metzitza b'peh -- mistakenly in my view --and presumably the parents of these babies attach importance to a mohel that only uses his mouth. It could have happened to any other mohel that only does b'peh.
Number 1. . . I forgot to ask our mohel if he does metzitza b'peh because I remember learning about this when I was single from a former date who asked me my opinion on the glass tube. . . . below is why he asked.
Number 2. . . A BT family flew in a mohel at great expense because they wanted both a Chabad mohel and a mohel who did metzitza b'peh. My date really opposed the b'peh procedure because he believed (rightfully so) that exchanging fluids was dangerous. He stated that the mohel does nknow where the parents of each baby have been, especially when dealing with BT's. (I think the same applies to FFB's. . . maybe even more nebuch (!)).
Number 3. . . Politico brought an exaple from the porn industry that will probably be attached (not by me, however). I think another example that might be more acceptable as precedence is that a person who carries *or may carry* an STD (esp. AIDS) can use a condom (which is not normally allowed) because there is a danger. It is obvious that a mohel can pose a danger to life due to the nature of the procedure. Maybe there is already precedence in the halacha for testing like politico suggested (if these mohelim will not use a glass tube).
Number 4. . . Baruch Hashem our baby is healthy.
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:18 PM
DJ_Tachlis, on Feb 2 2005, 07:30 PM, said:
OMG! Is that the fisher from monsey? He gave me a siddur for my bar mitsvah, he is a freind of the family. I feel so bad for him, he is a great man.
I hope that you feel even more for the little babies that have been affected!
(Note. . . this comment is not malicious).
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:30 PM
Why are you having hopes about my feelings? Strange.
[I dont like feeling bad for things that have no feelings, like a corpse]
May their souls rest in peace, and may the ones that have been infected be healed speedily.
If this is of any solace to the familes, Rabbi fisher is known to have done many circumcisions in the Former USSR. He has risked his life to give others a jewish life.
[I dont like feeling bad for things that have no feelings, like a corpse]
May their souls rest in peace, and may the ones that have been infected be healed speedily.
If this is of any solace to the familes, Rabbi fisher is known to have done many circumcisions in the Former USSR. He has risked his life to give others a jewish life.
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:39 PM
DJ_Tachlis, on Feb 2 2005, 10:30 PM, said:
If this is of any solace to the familes, Rabbi fisher is known to have done many circumcisions in the Former USSR. He has risked his life to give others a jewish life.
As the mother of a Jewish baby boy. . . please explain why this would be of any solace when the herpes could have been prevented (it seems) by using the glass tube or syringe instead of metziza b'peh?
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:42 PM
DJ_Tachlis, on Feb 2 2005, 10:30 PM, said:
[I dont like feeling bad for things that have no feelings, like a corpse]
Just a note. . . those "things" are dead babies who contracted a deadly disease that was preventable.
I too wish a very, very speedy recovery to the babies who are still living. I can't even imagine the pain of the parents of the baby who was niftar.
#13
DJ_Tachlis
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:46 PM
I have done 2 brissim myself [the cutting and stitching] and have assisted in several others, It's not that simple. I am not in the mood to argue.
#14
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:57 PM
I'm not in the mood to argue right now either (I'm still watching the commentaries to the State of the Union speech). I am trying to understand how a mother of a baby is supposed to feel better because the Rabbi has mesirat nefesh and performs brit milah in the former USSR for free (I googled and this is verified).
#15
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Posted 02 February 2005 - 11:08 PM
A little story:
My mother has 7 children Bli Ayin Hora. I was born in a Labour / Prison camp. (When my father was looking for a mohel to circumcise me, he was not able to find anyone for 3 days. He finnaly found one that took upon himself to do it. The mohel said that he has never preformed a bris before, and he was afraid to do it. He also metioned that he does not want to do brissim publicly until he does it on his own son first. nontheless he did it. Now he has 6 doughers and no sons.)
My point here: My grandmother quoted my mother saying that she would give her own life rather then see me grow up a non-jew. She actualy risked her life by standing guard and distracting the KGB agents who could have shot us if they knew that theres a baby being circumsized.
This may have no connection to the story above, But I hold mohelim in higher regard, and am still considering becoming one myself.
[For those of you who live in monsey: Next time you see the delivary guy from A&B fish with the long red beard, See him as the man who litterly risked his life to bring me into this world as a jew.
My mother has 7 children Bli Ayin Hora. I was born in a Labour / Prison camp. (When my father was looking for a mohel to circumcise me, he was not able to find anyone for 3 days. He finnaly found one that took upon himself to do it. The mohel said that he has never preformed a bris before, and he was afraid to do it. He also metioned that he does not want to do brissim publicly until he does it on his own son first. nontheless he did it. Now he has 6 doughers and no sons.)
My point here: My grandmother quoted my mother saying that she would give her own life rather then see me grow up a non-jew. She actualy risked her life by standing guard and distracting the KGB agents who could have shot us if they knew that theres a baby being circumsized.
This may have no connection to the story above, But I hold mohelim in higher regard, and am still considering becoming one myself.
[For those of you who live in monsey: Next time you see the delivary guy from A&B fish with the long red beard, See him as the man who litterly risked his life to bring me into this world as a jew.
#16
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 09:19 AM
DJ we all have respect for mohelim but they need to respect us too. The mohel mentioned in the story was specifically warned by the city health department that were he to continue doing meztizah he would be putting the lives of innocent children at risk. But still he continued doing metzitzh anyway.
If the facts of the story are indeed true then I am one person who thinks he should be held on (attempted) murder charges...
If the facts of the story are indeed true then I am one person who thinks he should be held on (attempted) murder charges...
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 09:37 AM
Maybe we should be dan lekaf zchus.
I just cant belive that he would be so careless. Im stunned.
And yes I agree, He should be sent to court/Bais din.
I just cant belive that he would be so careless. Im stunned.
And yes I agree, He should be sent to court/Bais din.
#18
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 09:39 AM
My husband told me that he has seen plenty of mohelim do the metziza with the mouth. In fact he says most times he sees them use their mouths.
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shim
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 10:33 AM
politico, on Feb 2 2005, 07:19 PM, said:
shim, on Feb 2 2005, 02:07 PM, said:
First, this is a terrible tragedy. Second, I don't think the mohel should be singled out for blame per se (by us, not necessarily by law), as there is a segment of the Jewish population that attaches great importance to metzitza b'peh -- mistakenly in my view --and presumably the parents of these babies attach importance to a mohel that only uses his mouth. It could have happened to any other mohel that only does b'peh.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
That said, I don't understand why metzitzah b'peh is clung to with such tenacity when there is clear evidence that it poses a health risk. For longer than 150 years there have been ample halachic backing for using a tube or syringe. In fact, one of the early teshuvas on the topic discussed a strikingly similar case, of a mohel that passed on a disease (maybe herpes?) acquired from a baby that was the son of a prostitute and passed it on to many boys, some of whom died. The purpose the Gemara states for doing metzitza b'peh is that it is a healthy measure. It confounds logic that it must continue despite its health risks when halachically valid alternatives exist.
maybe a poor comparison, but in the pornography industry actors are tested monthly and not permitted to continue working if they test positive for any STD. perhaps a similar standard should be imposed for mohelim.
#20
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 01:12 PM
http://www.nydailyne...0p-237488c.html
Circumcision rite is risky, city says
BY MAGGIE HABERMAN
DAILY NEWS CITY HALL BUREAU
A form of religious circumcision holds "inherent risks" for babies, the city health commissioner said yesterday.
Dr. Thomas Frieden's comments came the day the Daily News reported that his agency is investigating whether an infant who died of herpes last year contracted the disease from the rabbi who circumcised him.
Two more city babies were found to have contracted herpes after they were circumcised by the same rabbi, Rockland County-based Yitzchok Fischer.
Fischer practices a ritual used mostly among ultra-Orthodox Jews called metzizah bi peh, in which the person performing the circumcision draws blood from the wound using his mouth.
"We do believe that there are inherent risks to this practice and we're discussing those in a respectful" way with ultra-Orthodox leaders, Frieden said.
In November and again in December, the city ordered Fischer, a prominent mohel who claims to have performed more than 12,000 circumcisions, to submit to a blood test to determine whether he has herpes simplex 1 virus.
Neither Frieden nor Fischer's lawyer would say yesterday whether the test had been done.
The issue of metzizah bi peh has been debated in recent years within the Jewish community. Some, like Yeshiva University Prof. Rabbi Moshe Tendler, argue it's not required and too risky.
But Frieden's comments touched off concern among other Jewish leaders, who said they were leery of government intervention in religious custom.
Chana Ausband, a Rockland County mother, said Fischer performed her baby's circumcision. "What he's doing is following tradition. For years and years, that has not caused any problems," Ausband said.
Circumcision rite is risky, city says
BY MAGGIE HABERMAN
DAILY NEWS CITY HALL BUREAU
A form of religious circumcision holds "inherent risks" for babies, the city health commissioner said yesterday.
Dr. Thomas Frieden's comments came the day the Daily News reported that his agency is investigating whether an infant who died of herpes last year contracted the disease from the rabbi who circumcised him.
Two more city babies were found to have contracted herpes after they were circumcised by the same rabbi, Rockland County-based Yitzchok Fischer.
Fischer practices a ritual used mostly among ultra-Orthodox Jews called metzizah bi peh, in which the person performing the circumcision draws blood from the wound using his mouth.
"We do believe that there are inherent risks to this practice and we're discussing those in a respectful" way with ultra-Orthodox leaders, Frieden said.
In November and again in December, the city ordered Fischer, a prominent mohel who claims to have performed more than 12,000 circumcisions, to submit to a blood test to determine whether he has herpes simplex 1 virus.
Neither Frieden nor Fischer's lawyer would say yesterday whether the test had been done.
The issue of metzizah bi peh has been debated in recent years within the Jewish community. Some, like Yeshiva University Prof. Rabbi Moshe Tendler, argue it's not required and too risky.
But Frieden's comments touched off concern among other Jewish leaders, who said they were leery of government intervention in religious custom.
Chana Ausband, a Rockland County mother, said Fischer performed her baby's circumcision. "What he's doing is following tradition. For years and years, that has not caused any problems," Ausband said.
