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#21 Miketab

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:38 PM

A mamzer marries a non-jew, then his children convert, and they're not mamzerim anymore... I think

#22 Aristotle

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:38 PM

Oh, and although it is muttar for a mamzer to marry a geyores the rabbanut in Yerushalayim does not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the child would still be a Mamzer, (unlike the case of a Mamzer marrying a Amah Knanis).
Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so why would it be muttar if that produces mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issur is a mamzer marrying "zera yaakov" (zera yisrael?), which a ger/ geyores is not- not creating more mazerim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did this
"Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??"
get into my quote?! :angry:

The Issur is "Lavo B'khal Hashem", not "Zera yaackov".
.כלל הדבר, כי ראוי שיהיה השכל בן חורין -מהר"ל בחיד"א

#23 doodlehead

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:39 PM

A mamzer marries a non-jew, then his children convert, and they're not mamzerim anymore... I think

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but thats probably ossur.
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#24 hashfanatic

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:39 PM

Oh, and although it is muttar for a mamzer to marry a geyores the rabbanut in Yerushalayim does not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the child would still be a Mamzer, (unlike the case of a Mamzer marrying a Amah Knanis).
Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so why would it be muttar if that produces mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issur is a mamzer marrying "zera yaakov" (zera yisrael?), which a ger/ geyores is not- not creating more mazerim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did this
"Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??"
get into my quote?! :angry:

The Issur is "Lavo B'khal Hashem", not "Zera yaackov".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aristotle, it was probably the computer.

#25 Sdargant

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:40 PM

A mamzer marries a non-jew, then his children convert, and they're not mamzerim anymore... I think

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except that there is a clear issur min hatorah that jews are forbidden to marry nonjews (intermarriage) there is no exception!
Ayzeh kef lihiyot yehudi....

#26 Aristotle

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:40 PM

?? :blink:
.כלל הדבר, כי ראוי שיהיה השכל בן חורין -מהר"ל בחיד"א

#27 Sdargant

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:43 PM

Oh, and although it is muttar for a mamzer to marry a geyores the rabbanut in Yerushalayim does not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the child would still be a Mamzer, (unlike the case of a Mamzer marrying a Amah Knanis).
Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so why would it be muttar if that produces mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issur is a mamzer marrying "zera yaakov" (zera yisrael?), which a ger/ geyores is not- not creating more mazerim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did this
"Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??"
get into my quote?! :angry:

The Issur is "Lavo B'khal Hashem", not "Zera yaackov".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I put it there. I was aking a question on your post. So, did you? Why would you feel the need top point that out after my post?

As far as zera yisrael/ kahal Hashem. The point is pretty much the same. I just forgot the exact phrase.
Ayzeh kef lihiyot yehudi....

#28 Sdargant

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:46 PM

Oh, and although it is muttar for a mamzer to marry a geyores the rabbanut in Yerushalayim does not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the child would still be a Mamzer, (unlike the case of a Mamzer marrying a Amah Knanis).
Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so why would it be muttar if that produces mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issur is a mamzer marrying "zera yaakov" (zera yisrael?), which a ger/ geyores is not- not creating more mazerim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there isnt an issur to produce mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not that way, I don't think. But it certainly falls in the geder of "not a reall good idea".
Ayzeh kef lihiyot yehudi....

#29 Sdargant

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:47 PM

I didn't chap that "of", sorry :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

s'okay :)
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#30 doodlehead

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:47 PM

Oh, and although it is muttar for a mamzer to marry a geyores the rabbanut in Yerushalayim does not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the child would still be a Mamzer, (unlike the case of a Mamzer marrying a Amah Knanis).
Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so why would it be muttar if that produces mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issur is a mamzer marrying "zera yaakov" (zera yisrael?), which a ger/ geyores is not- not creating more mazerim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there isnt an issur to produce mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not that way, I don't think. But it certainly falls in the geder of "not a reall good idea".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so the only reason why a mamzer cant marry is "lo yavo"?
"Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of [email protected], dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "[email protected] that was fun".
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#31 int

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:47 PM

Why did he have to marry an African woman? He could have chosen any non-Jewish girl (and then go to the African embassy for the procedure).

#32 doodlehead

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:49 PM

Why did he have to marry an African woman? He could have chosen any non-Jewish girl (and then go to the African embassy for the procedure).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

she had to be a slave, and that was noachs curse that he would always be a slave.
"Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of [email protected], dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "[email protected] that was fun".
Traveling the world in search of the truth.
Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you.
Author of the 1,234,567th post on Hashkafah.com!!

#33 agent220

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:52 PM

Why did he have to marry an African woman? He could have chosen any non-Jewish girl (and then go to the African embassy for the procedure).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't necessarily an African AFAIK.

BTW, has anyone heard R' Eliyahu Ki Tov's peirush on Yishai, father of Dovid Hamelech? Fascinating...
When you try to make a statement, all you're really doing is raising questions.

#34 Sdargant

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:53 PM

Why did he have to marry an African woman? He could have chosen any non-Jewish girl (and then go to the African embassy for the procedure).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



He was not marrying her. He bought her as a shifcha (amah kinanis) and then he could act like a "regular frum family" and she would be mechuyav in mitzvos "like a woman" but would be a shifcha not a jew. He would have sex with her. He could produce children with her. These children are not jews, they are his avadim. They grow up being mechuyav in mitzvos like a woman but are not jews. But they can be raised as jews because as soon as he frees them they will be full jews. But NOT mamzerim.

This "chap" is not intermarriage and it does not produce mamzerim.

ETA: I misunderstood what you were asking. I think practically speaking it doesn't matter who he "bought". Only the way it went down. Of course it had to be someone who was actually "owned", otherwise how would that be halachikly buying her?
Ayzeh kef lihiyot yehudi....

#35 int

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 04:08 PM

ETA: I misunderstood what you were asking. I think practically speaking it doesn't matter who he "bought". Only the way it went down. Of course it had to be someone who was actually "owned", otherwise how would that be halachikly buying her?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, but how does one become 'owned'? I would imagine if the woman voluntarily gave herself up into slavery that would be one way. I don't know how this works for gentiles though.

#36 doodlehead

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 04:12 PM

ETA: I misunderstood what you were asking. I think practically speaking it doesn't matter who he "bought". Only the way it went down. Of course it had to be someone who was actually "owned", otherwise how would that be halachikly buying her?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, but how does one become 'owned'? I would imagine if the woman voluntarily gave herself up into slavery that would be one way. I don't know how this works for gentiles though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it works for binei cannan, that they are always gonna be slaves.
"Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of [email protected], dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "[email protected] that was fun".
Traveling the world in search of the truth.
Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you.
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#37 simpleTorah

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 04:27 PM

Oh, and although it is muttar for a mamzer to marry a geyores the rabbanut in Yerushalayim does not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the child would still be a Mamzer, (unlike the case of a Mamzer marrying a Amah Knanis).
Right, did you bother reading my post before that one??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so why would it be muttar if that produces mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issur is a mamzer marrying "zera yaakov" (zera yisrael?), which a ger/ geyores is not- not creating more mazerim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there isnt an issur to produce mamzeirim?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I already referenced a source that forbids producing mamazerim. That is why the only option would be a "canaanite slave" or to ignore that "issur" which is not well grounded (it's based on a comment in the 4th perek of Kiddushin, but not on an actual issur derabannan - as far as I recall).

#38 simpleTorah

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 04:36 PM

ETA: I misunderstood what you were asking. I think practically speaking it doesn't matter who he "bought". Only the way it went down. Of course it had to be someone who was actually "owned", otherwise how would that be halachikly buying her?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, but how does one become 'owned'? I would imagine if the woman voluntarily gave herself up into slavery that would be one way. I don't know how this works for gentiles though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It works through "hazakah" (the woman begins serving the Jewish man as a slave) or money or a document of purchase - see Rambam Hilkhos Mekhirah 2:1-3. [Thus, it can be done in a way that looks very similar to a wedding, and that is how it's done according to the story I heard about Habad shlichim who were "mesader kinyan" at the wedding of two such brothers.]

#39 doodlehead

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 04:38 PM

ETA: I misunderstood what you were asking. I think practically speaking it doesn't matter who he "bought". Only the way it went down. Of course it had to be someone who was actually "owned", otherwise how would that be halachikly buying her?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, but how does one become 'owned'? I would imagine if the woman voluntarily gave herself up into slavery that would be one way. I don't know how this works for gentiles though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It works through "hazakah" (the woman begins serving the Jewish man as a slave) or money or a document of purchase - see Rambam Hilkhos Mekhirah 2:1-3. [Thus, it can be done in a way that looks very similar to a wedding, and that is how it's done according to the story I heard about Habad shlichim who were "mesader kinyan" at the wedding of two such brothers.]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but you cant give her the money or shtar, don't you have to give it to her master?
"Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of [email protected], dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "[email protected] that was fun".
Traveling the world in search of the truth.
Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you.
Author of the 1,234,567th post on Hashkafah.com!!

#40 simpleTorah

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 04:39 PM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but how does one become 'owned'? I would imagine if the woman voluntarily gave herself up into slavery that would be one way. I don't know how this works for gentiles though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it works for binei cannan, that they are always gonna be slaves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Doodlehead, That's the second time you posted that. Are you a card carrying, dues paying member of the KKK?




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