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Mezonot Rolls


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#1 yahoo

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 02:50 AM

If a bakery makes rolls using a liquid other than water, the rolls are apparently not hamotze.
Some say that if the rolls constitute the bulk of the meal, you should wash.

Are you supposed to wash for these types of rolls?
Are you supposed to bensch afterwards?
Whats the difference if the rolls were made using orange juice or water. Isnt it still bread really?

#2 rivka

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 02:55 AM

If a bakery makes rolls using a liquid other than water, the rolls are apparently not hamotze.
Some say that if the rolls constitute the bulk of the meal, you should wash.

Are you supposed to wash for these types of rolls?
Are you supposed to bensch afterwards?
Whats the difference if the rolls were made using orange juice or water. Isn't it still bread really?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It depends.

#3 NY-LON

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 04:46 AM

Some authorities do not accept "mezonot rolls" at all. They say that if it looks like bread, it tastes like bread (ie the fruit juice used to make the rolls does not give a noticeable taste to the bread, and the texture is like bread and not cake), and it is used as bread (eaten as part of the meal) then it is bread.

The OU does not certify "mezonot rolls":
http://oukosher.org/...cles/single/21/
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#4 simpleTorah

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 04:48 AM

If a bakery makes rolls using a liquid other than water, the rolls are apparently not hamotze.
Some say that if the rolls constitute the bulk of the meal, you should wash.

Are you supposed to wash for these types of rolls?
Are you supposed to bensch afterwards?
Whats the difference if the rolls were made using orange juice or water. Isn't it still bread really?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It depends.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Good summary. However, this is wrong (lan"d):
When the pas habah b'kisnin augments the meal, such as cake or a pas habah b'kisnin roll with an airline meal, even if the pas habah b'kisnin roll or cake tasted like cake, once one eats this cake or roll with a meal it fulfills a bread-like criteria and one would have to wash and make hamotzi on the cake or mezonos roll.

Eating cake with a meal, does not constitute being kove'ah se'udah [establishing a meal] on the cake. In order to establish a bread meal, bread has to be the main food [le-lafes bo es ha-pas]; the other foods [meat, fish, hummus] are added to the lafa [le-lafes] or pita [pat/pas] or other bread.

If bread is not the main food but is also not merely tafel [=secondary, as in to place in mouth immediately after eating something spicy] it still gets its own berakhah and washing of hands, but cake remains cake.

HOWEVER, one could make an argument that really in a non-bread based society, we should be bentching after full meals in any case [just as Hazal did after their full meals, which happened to be bread based]. In that case, one might look for any formal language, reason, to require bentching after a meal - as in the presence of bread or cake which gets reframed as if one had been establishing the meal on the cake.

BUT this is not what is happening. What has happened is that bread becomes an object in itself and the sole measure of all [to the point that even when the chicken/meat is not eaten in or on the bread, and bread is definitely not the main portion of the meal, we still only say a berakhah on bread and consider everything else tafel (secondary)] and then the whole logic of hamotzi gets turned on its head. This is the price of mimetic tradition, and it only works as long as people don't question their cultural norms.

#5 The Rabbi

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 09:54 AM

NY-LON again gets my vote for best most succinct post.

My car mechanic is a Palestinian christian. One time I was with my son and we stopped in just as they were eating lunch. Lunch was some kind of stewed meat with vegetables. They were eating it by scooping it up with pita bread and seasoning it with salt and squeezing fresh lemon wedges on it. I told my son this is probably just how people ate in the times of chazal. We have made dinners during the week just like that and call it dinner Palestinian style (no bomb jokes,please).
But seeing that made me understand why bread was considered the ikker of the meal.
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#6 HolyApple

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:27 AM

Some authorities do not accept "mezonot rolls" at all. They say that if it looks like bread, it tastes like bread (ie the fruit juice used to make the rolls does not give a noticeable taste to the bread, and the texture is like bread and not cake), and it is used as bread (eaten as part of the meal) then it is bread.

The OU does not certify "mezonot rolls":
http://oukosher.org/...cles/single/21/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bloody inconvenient too, that is..OU airplane meals always give you rolls which are hamotze as they proudly promote the fact that they hold you have to wash anyway for a meal (what they give is a meal???) and thus mezonot rolls are no good anyway...
Yet, for all there religiousity and strictness, the milchig meals they give are not cholov yisroel. (though I know they are 2 seperate issues completely...still a bit of consistency in being strict or lenient...)

(most other airline meals proudly tell you that all rolls and cakes are mezonot...)
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#7 The Rabbi

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:08 AM

It wouldnt matter what label the OU puts on the roll. If it looks like bread, tastes like bread, and you use it like bread, it is bread and you have to wash.
I use an over-simplified rule of thumb: the tuna fish rule. If you would eat it with tuna fish then its bread. So raisin bread is getting close but people still eat it with tuna. But bananna bread is clearly over the line.
What I am still trying to figure out is the pizza marked "mezonos" because the crust was made with apple juice.
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#8 politico

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:25 AM

I use an over-simplified rule of thumb: the tuna fish rule.  If you would eat it with tuna fish then its bread. So raisin bread is getting close but people still eat it with tuna.  But bananna bread is clearly over the line.
What I am still trying to figure out is the pizza marked "mezonos" because the crust was made with apple juice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

would you eat tuna fish with the pizza in question?
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#9 HolyApple

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:28 AM

I use an over-simplified rule of thumb: the tuna fish rule.† If you would eat it with tuna fish then its bread. So raisin bread is getting close but people still eat it with tuna.† But bananna bread is clearly over the line.
What I am still trying to figure out is the pizza marked "mezonos" because the crust was made with apple juice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

would you eat tuna fish with the pizza in question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One can acquire tuna pizza, tis true.
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#10 Arizona

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:31 AM

.
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#11 HolyApple

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:33 AM

I use an over-simplified rule of thumb: the tuna fish rule.† If you would eat it with tuna fish then its bread. So raisin bread is getting close but people still eat it with tuna.† But bananna bread is clearly over the line.
What I am still trying to figure out is the pizza marked "mezonos" because the crust was made with apple juice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

would you eat tuna fish with the pizza in question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One can acquire tuna pizza, tis true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



But can one acquire a taste for it? :unsure:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've had it before, not too bad...prefer salmon pizza
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#12 Guest_melech_*

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:34 AM

.

#13 The Rabbi

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:51 AM

I use an over-simplified rule of thumb: the tuna fish rule.  If you would eat it with tuna fish then its bread. So raisin bread is getting close but people still eat it with tuna.  But bananna bread is clearly over the line.
What I am still trying to figure out is the pizza marked "mezonos" because the crust was made with apple juice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

would you eat tuna fish with the pizza in question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually the crazy French serve it this way. Once my wife and I were in Paris. We went to a pizza shop. We ordered a pizza with egg, thinking it was hard boiled and chopped. No. It came with the egg sunny side up in the middle. We didnt eat it and the waiter came by, a Franglais type, and asked "if you didnt want the egg why did you order it? Just to see how the crazy French put egg on pizza?
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#14 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:03 AM

Bloody inconvenient too, that is..OU airplane meals always give you rolls which are hamotze as they proudly promote the fact that they hold you have to wash anyway for a meal (what they give is a meal???) and thus mezonot rolls are no good anyway...
Yet, for all there religiousity and strictness, the milchig meals they give are not cholov yisroel.  (though I know they are 2 seperate issues completely...still a bit of consistency in being strict or lenient...)

(most other airline meals proudly tell you that all rolls and cakes are mezonot...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


What bothers me and I have ranted about this in the past, is that the OU airline meals have ZERO documentation, they are the only ones.

People have to know their standards of Kashrus in order to figure out whether the bread is mezonos or hamotzie Pas Yisrael (they very well may be but who knows), and the milchigs CY or not and even still it is an assumption as maybe at least some of it IS CY as well but we would have no way of knowing that.

Many people, as they are tourists do NOT know and are nichshal as a result. I warned several people on my last flight out of JFK that the milchigs were not CY and they were very angry that there was no indication of that on the package and they were almost nichshal. They assumed that since they ordered the "glatt/mehaderin" meal that naturally it would be CY without even thinking to ask.

I will rant again, but shame on the OU or at least Borenstein Caterers that they don't include any info about the kashrus which is SOP in all other Kosher airline meals that I have seen, it is also SOP to include mezonos rolls, so even if they don't hold by them which is their right, they should at least point that out to the ignorant customer who does not read the entire OU kashrus guidlines before boarding the plaine. Also at least outside of the US people associate mehaderin/glatt with being CY and Pas Yisrael. Would it be so hard to include an explanation card in the meals like EVERY other company does?

I have complained to Borenstein and not received a response and I have asked airlines to switch to meals with better documented hechsherim, and more accepted as mehaderin in order to better serve their customers. I suggest everyone else do the same.
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#15 accolade

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:13 AM

Actually the crazy French serve it this way.  Once my wife and I were in Paris.  We went to a pizza shop.  We ordered a pizza with egg, thinking it was hard boiled and chopped.  No.  It came with the egg sunny side up in the middle.  We didnt eat it and the waiter came by, a Franglais type, and asked "if you didnt want the egg why did you order it?  Just to see how the crazy French put egg on pizza?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That waiter must have received a large tip.
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#16 Torn

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:16 AM

I warned several people on my last flight out of JFK that the milchigs were not CY

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OU Glatt/Mehadrin meals are not Cholov Yisroel?? And these meals originate in New York??


shame on the OU or at least Borenstein Caterers

You could say that again...

I have complained to Borenstein and not received a response and I have asked airlines to switch to meals with better documented hechsherim, and more accepted as mehaderin in order to better serve their customers. I suggest everyone else do the same.

Which airlines?
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#17 Tova

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:20 AM

K-Rebbe, years ago I was under the assumption that the food on El Al was Glatt, and was surprised when it surfaced last year that the food wasn't and only the special mehadrin meal was Glatt.

In these here United States it has become rare to find an Orthodox hashgacha given to a non-Glatt product--- which is why the El Al issue surprised me...What about airline food originating in Antwerp or places in Switzerland?

I'm not flying international during the nine days-- but couldn't be a problem, i.e. you'd most likely be served a meat meal. Are airlines accomodating enough to provide a kosher dairy meal upon request? And for those that request it, CY?
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#18 Torn

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:23 AM

I'm not flying international during the nine days-- but couldn't be a problem, i.e. you'd most likely be served a meat meal.† Are airlines accomodating enough to provide a kosher dairy meal upon request?†

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Make a siyum om the plane :p
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#19 hashfanatic

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:26 AM

Speaking of which, oddly, all of the CY milk and OJ in my nabe seems, well, sour lately. Why?

#20 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:27 AM

I warned several people on my last flight out of JFK that the milchigs were not CY

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OU Glatt/Mehadrin meals are not Cholov Yisroel?? And these meals originate in New York??


Nope perhaps the cooked egg and cheese is but they include a small single size Philadelphia creem cheese which for sure is NOT leading me to believe the hot food is also not.

shame on the OU or at least Borenstein Caterers

You could say that again...


It doesn't bother me that they are not CY, most people are not makpid (I used not to be myself) but there is no excuse for no informing people which is tantamount to deception as it is assumed that it will be CY especially by "chutznikim" (non americans)

I have complained to Borenstein and not received a response and I have asked airlines to switch to meals with better documented hechsherim, and more accepted as mehaderin in order to better serve their customers. I suggest everyone else do the same.

Which airlines?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Many airlines, I don't remember what el al gives in the US, it has been so long since I've flown with them. Many airlines use Borenstein's meals and they frequently switch companies.

Last time I flew with Turkish and they used Borenstein, and I believe Czech/Delta does as well.
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