Jump to content


Photo

Kashrus Cert.


  • Please log in to reply
98 replies to this topic

#41 The Rabbi

The Rabbi

    Merchant of Death

  • Members
  • 4,160 posts

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:24 PM

I just called the local vaad ha-kashrut and left a message. b'n I'll try to clarify their position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't local all relative when you are in cyberspace?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting question with all sorts of implications. Am I immediately bound, for example, by the pronouncement of a rav in let's say, NY or Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu just because his da'at torah is quickly disseminated with modern technologies? What happens to minhag ha-makom?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



It is only so if you live in cyberspace. Most of us do not live there but just meet up occasionally. The pronouncements of some rabbi in the ZOE should have no immediate effect on anyone here, and certainly should not over rule the LOR.
www.eastsidegunshop.com

"That Obama's a piece of ####. And I told him to suck on my machine gun." -Ted Nugent.

#42 The Rabbi

The Rabbi

    Merchant of Death

  • Members
  • 4,160 posts

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:28 PM

Interesting anecdote:

I asked a (very chareidi) Rav in high school about why we needed to wear hats to davening. We spoke for maybe 20 minutes and then he finally said that while the mishna berurah's reasoning is not binding today seeing as we wouldn't wear a hat to see a king, nevertheless we must follow the minhag hamakom. So I asked, what about a place where they don't where hats? He looked flustered and responded: "It's a minhag hamakom of klal yisrael everywhere." Now to me that statement is nonsense, but with modern communications perhaps he has a point? Not about hats but about the death of minhag hamakom?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Now thats funny.

It is true that minhag hamakom has less force today, not because of communication but because people move a lot more. Reb Moshe zt'l has a teshuva where he basically says this. But increased communication ahs made some difference.
I always heard that one could not kasher plastic, period. Then I heard that some rabbis in Eretz Yisroel permitted it. Now basically every rabbi I am in contact with about this sort of thing permits it. Either they heard that in Israel it was permitted and so permitted it hear or they had learned in EY and brought back that psak with them. I also have to say the nature of plastic has changed in 20 years.
www.eastsidegunshop.com

"That Obama's a piece of ####. And I told him to suck on my machine gun." -Ted Nugent.

#43 Guest_melech_*

Guest_melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:29 PM

.

#44 enigma

enigma

    רבנית

  • Members
  • 3,070 posts

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:32 PM

Interesting question with all sorts of implications. Am I immediately bound, for example, by the pronouncement of a rav in let's say, NY or Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu just because his da'at torah is quickly disseminated with modern technologies? What happens to minhag ha-makom?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Interesting anecdote:

I asked a (very chareidi) Rav in high school about why we needed to wear hats to davening. We spoke for maybe 20 minutes and then he finally said that while the mishna berurah's reasoning is not binding today seeing as we wouldn't wear a hat to see a king, nevertheless we must follow the minhag hamakom. So I asked, what about a place where they don't where hats? He looked flustered and responded: "It's a minhag hamakom of klal yisrael everywhere." Now to me that statement is nonsense, but with modern communications perhaps he has a point? Not about hats but about the death of minhag hamakom?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have issues with people who live in mixed communities (where it is therefore hard to say that there is one singular minhag hamakom) who just assume that the most stringent minhag must be the one that takes precedence. I think that some places probably do still have a minhag hamakom, but they are fairly few and far between. Not just because of communication (though that's certainly a factor), but also because you have so many communities that are not so singular and isolated that it can be said that they have their own minhagim.
אין הדבר תלוי אלא בי

"Have you seen H&M this season? It looks like the 70's threw up on the 80's." ~holy

#45 FYI

FYI

    Naive or Clueless?

  • Members
  • 16,184 posts

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:33 PM

Interesting anecdote:

I asked a (very chareidi) Rav in high school about why we needed to wear hats to davening. We spoke for maybe 20 minutes and then he finally said that while the mishna berurah's reasoning is not binding today seeing as we wouldn't wear a hat to see a king, nevertheless we must follow the minhag hamakom. So I asked, what about a place where they don't where hats? He looked flustered and responded: "It's a minhag hamakom of klal yisrael everywhere." Now to me that statement is nonsense, but with modern communications perhaps he has a point? Not about hats but about the death of minhag hamakom?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Now thats funny.

It is true that minhag hamakom has less force today, not because of communication but because people move a lot more. Reb Moshe zt'l has a teshuva where he basically says this. But increased communication ahs made some difference.
I always heard that one could not kasher plastic, period. Then I heard that some rabbis in Eretz Yisroel permitted it. Now basically every rabbi I am in contact with about this sort of thing permits it. Either they heard that in Israel it was permitted and so permitted it hear or they had learned in EY and brought back that psak with them. I also have to say the nature of plastic has changed in 20 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We asked about kashering a dishwasher and were told how to do it and what to do (plastic racks) but were not allowed to kasher regular plastic or even kasher the dishwasher for Pesach.
Many people wish they could change their life, when all they really need to do is change their attitude towards life. - Sharon

#46 The Rabbi

The Rabbi

    Merchant of Death

  • Members
  • 4,160 posts

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:33 PM

  I also have to say the nature of plastic has changed in 20 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nishtanu ha-teva?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No, nishtanu ha-nylon.

Just the way plastic is formulated today is different from what it was 20 and 40 years ago. I remember when if you dipped a plastic spatula in boiling water it came out deformed. Today that never happens.
www.eastsidegunshop.com

"That Obama's a piece of ####. And I told him to suck on my machine gun." -Ted Nugent.

#47 FYI

FYI

    Naive or Clueless?

  • Members
  • 16,184 posts

Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:34 PM

  I also have to say the nature of plastic has changed in 20 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nishtanu ha-teva?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No, nishtanu ha-nylon.

Just the way plastic is formulated today is different from what it was 20 and 40 years ago. I remember when if you dipped a plastic spatula in boiling water it came out deformed. Today that never happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Never say never.
Many people wish they could change their life, when all they really need to do is change their attitude towards life. - Sharon

#48 Guest_melech_*

Guest_melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 21 July 2005 - 05:55 PM

.

#49 Sweet

Sweet

    Passionately Ambivalent

  • Members
  • 6,949 posts

Posted 22 July 2005 - 08:41 AM

IIRC there was a legall dispute between the COR and a major meat company. The meat peeps had begun leaving their stuff open on shabbos. The COR took off the hechsher. The meat people sued for about a billion dollares. The judge sent them to Beis Din.
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#50 happyduck1979

happyduck1979

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 22 July 2005 - 11:19 AM

Ok, As for COR, all new restaraunts must be owned at least 51% by someone who is shomer torah and mitzvot. They will not hechsher a place owned by non Jews. As for the meat place, that was a very differnt issues as there are seperate rules for restaraunts and manufacturers (which is actually one of the issues that aorse with crispy cream... which were they). IE, a manufacturer can get a hechsher even if they operate on shabbat (Cocacola do not turn their plans off one day a week and is allwed to be owned by non-Jews so long as they have a mashgiach.

Now to answer th orriginal question. I remember a couple years ago there was the question of the boat in New York that wanted a hecher but would have mixed dancing and "inappropriate" activities. I have an enormous problem with that. I think a Kashrut organiations job is to certify that the food is okay, nothing more. They must take whatever steps they need to in order to accomplish this task, but anything not directly related ot food is none of their concern. A kasrut agency threatinging to take away a hechsher for reason such as mied seating, tv's or dress should be dealt with as harshly as possible.

Each mitzvah is a mitzvah in its own right. People should be able ot do one even if not doing the other. (IE, just because someone thinks mixed dancing is okay, does not mean that they should not be allowed access to certified kosher food). Who are we to decide which mitzvah is more important?
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

Empty Cradle, Empty Heart My thoughts, rants against God, and prayers after have a still birth of a very wanted little girl in February of 2011.
Why I choose to put private information in a public location

Our Aliya Blog Lots of pictures.
Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
Coming soon. A blog to keep track of my other blogs.

New Site. New Stuff. New Sales. Swirsky Designs

#51 brianna

brianna

    Sanctimonious Pleasure Seeker

  • Members
  • 13,655 posts

Posted 22 July 2005 - 11:58 AM

Look you can always have your event catered by a kosher restuarant or whatever and do the event however you want.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#52 SS613

SS613

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,066 posts

Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:52 PM

Wow do I have a lot of opinions in this area, but I will keep it brief.

I think that the local Va'ad has a responsibility to ensure a proper level of kashurt for the public, while simultaneously providing rules and regulations within halacha that protect the ability of owners to establish and maintain a profitable business.

I can think of local kashrut organizations that do a superb job of the above, and I can think of a local kashrut va'ad that is lucky there are restruants in town due to their policies!

In terms of specific social controls, I don't think that a kashrut organization should be so quick to turn down a business because a restruant wants to maintain late night hours (it is the parents' responsibility to watch their children and there is no reason to strip an owner of potential profits). On the other hand, I don't think I would be too happy for a va'ad to supervise a strip club.

In terms of controlling hours---this is my pet peeve! There are va'adim that prohibit resturants from operating regularily on fast days and there are va'adim that even make meat resturants close during the 9 days unless they can offer an alternative menu. Now, as a Sephardi, I'm offended by the latter one because it doesn't take into account perfectly valid opinion for Sephardim. But even Ashkenazim, who don't eat meat on Rosh Chodesh Av, should be unhappy about such a policy because these policies can be hurtful to business owners, especially owners who make good money from the non-Jewish community. The resturants that I enjoy eating at most are resturants that are good enough for the non-Jewish consumer.

#53 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

Kalashnikover_Rebbe

    fine, nice looking, batampte Ben Torah

  • Members
  • 26,049 posts

Posted 22 July 2005 - 04:30 PM

Each mitzvah is a mitzvah in its own right.  People should be able ot do one even if not doing the other.  (IE, just because someone thinks mixed dancing is okay, does not mean that they should not be allowed access to certified kosher food).  Who are we to decide which mitzvah is more important?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So you would not object to the issuing of a hechsher to a nudie bar or a brothel?? What about a ###### fighting joint?

Should I open up a Glatt Kosher Hooters (with BY waitresses of course)? (no comments from Jake please.....)

An extreme example but once you start picking and choosing you have to have SOME criteria other than mere kashrus of the food.
[/flirting]

#54 brianna

brianna

    Sanctimonious Pleasure Seeker

  • Members
  • 13,655 posts

Posted 22 July 2005 - 05:30 PM

Should I open up a Glatt Kosher Hooters (with BY waitresses of course)? (no comments from Jake please.....)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, why not? Start up money's the only question...
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#55 Itche fun Moskve

Itche fun Moskve

    Creedmoor Chronicler

  • Banned
  • 632 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 03:50 PM

Should I open up a Glatt Kosher Hooters (with BY waitresses of course)? (no comments from Jake please.....)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Creedmoor Rabbinical Council will be happy to give you a hechsher on that one. Actually, Federal Rosh Kollel S.W. of Windsor Plumbing fame, the inspiration for Yankel Ferdganver of Creedmoor, was an owner of Scores.

#56 happyduck1979

happyduck1979

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 10:07 PM

Each mitzvah is a mitzvah in its own right.  People should be able ot do one even if not doing the other.  (IE, just because someone thinks mixed dancing is okay, does not mean that they should not be allowed access to certified kosher food).  Who are we to decide which mitzvah is more important?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So you would not object to the issuing of a hechsher to a nudie bar or a brothel?? What about a ###### fighting joint?

Should I open up a Glatt Kosher Hooters (with BY waitresses of course)? (no comments from Jake please.....)

An extreme example but once you start picking and choosing you have to have SOME criteria other than mere kashrus of the food.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actualy, I would have no problem with kosher food at such a place. In fact, I wonder if in some ways it might not be so horrible. Now you have those yeshiva guys who want to see it going to treif places instead...
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

Empty Cradle, Empty Heart My thoughts, rants against God, and prayers after have a still birth of a very wanted little girl in February of 2011.
Why I choose to put private information in a public location

Our Aliya Blog Lots of pictures.
Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
Coming soon. A blog to keep track of my other blogs.

New Site. New Stuff. New Sales. Swirsky Designs

#57 TipuseiHarim

TipuseiHarim

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,833 posts

Posted 24 July 2005 - 01:46 AM

Each mitzvah is a mitzvah in its own right.  People should be able ot do one even if not doing the other.  (IE, just because someone thinks mixed dancing is okay, does not mean that they should not be allowed access to certified kosher food).  Who are we to decide which mitzvah is more important?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So you would not object to the issuing of a hechsher to a nudie bar or a brothel?? What about a ###### fighting joint?

Should I open up a Glatt Kosher Hooters (with BY waitresses of course)? (no comments from Jake please.....)

An extreme example but once you start picking and choosing you have to have SOME criteria other than mere kashrus of the food.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I would appreciate a less-extreme example. I don't think the above examples are such issues b/c I don't think there's much demand for them in the marketplace.. Also, I think you have to be very open about what you're going to make a hechsher subject to. For instance, there is an issur on drinking with idolators - should a va'ad be enforcing that (which is at least much more related to food than the clothing of the wait-staff)? Should kosher retaraunts have to choose between serving alcohol and serving Hindus? As it stands, some Vaads interpret their manate very broaly - perhaps more broadly than the prevailing standards of the community.

When a person selects a shul, or a yeshiva, the person is selecting the rabbi from whom it will accept mussar an moral guidance. The Vaad is not entrusted by the community with maintaining moral hygene, just with kashrut.
Count on your phone. Count every day. CountTheOmer.com

#58 NY-LON

NY-LON

    Toddler Chaser

  • Members
  • 3,848 posts

Posted 05 August 2005 - 07:31 AM

bumping this topic because of an article on the front page of this week's JC.

Supposedly, Kedassia has written to licence-holders in London, telling them that if they use the eruv, steps may be taken--up to and including revoking their kashrut licence.

(The NW London eruv is not accepted by the UOHC, who run Kedassia.)

so this raises the question: If you accept someone's kashrut supervision, should you be required to hold by their opinions in other matters OUTSIDE your business? (even if they are related in some way to kashrut, as Shabbat observance is)
Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
Coincidence does not imply correlation.

Warning: ever-present baby may result in mis-reading of posts.

#59 youngwifeandmum

youngwifeandmum

    Incredible

  • Members
  • 1,689 posts

Posted 05 August 2005 - 08:33 AM

..............and NYlon, did you know Kedassia didn't give Slice (in Golders green) a hechsher because they were afraid it would become a teen hangout. It's all Politics. It's all sick.
The instructions said, Windows 98 or better
So I bought a Mac!

Every so often, I like to go the window, look up, and smile for a satelite picture.

#60 The Rabbi

The Rabbi

    Merchant of Death

  • Members
  • 4,160 posts

Posted 05 August 2005 - 08:37 AM

bumping this topic because of an article on the front page of this week's JC.

Supposedly, Kedassia has written to licence-holders in London, telling them that if they use the eruv, steps may be taken--up to and including revoking their kashrut licence.

(The NW London eruv is not accepted by the UOHC, who run Kedassia.)

so this raises the question: If you accept someone's kashrut supervision, should you be required to hold by their opinions in other matters OUTSIDE your business? (even if they are related in some way to kashrut, as Shabbat observance is)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



That is a new level in supervision: going into people's homes. Let's say you are a frum, shomer shabbos guy with a restaurant under their supervision. You've asked a sheyla about the eiruv from your rav and he's told you it's kosher and to use it. Now your mashgiach tells you if you do, i.e. follow the psak your rav gave you, you will lose hashgacha, and likely your livelihood.
Somehow I dont think Torah was meant to be this way. :(
www.eastsidegunshop.com

"That Obama's a piece of ####. And I told him to suck on my machine gun." -Ted Nugent.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users