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#1 rinx

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 01:30 PM

I think it's sick that girls would spend a whole year doing something they hate to make an image to ensure they get the right husband... Seminary is totally unesaccary (how is that spelled?) unless you'r doing it for the fun.... I mean do girls have a chiyuv to learn? no! So who cares if we went to seminary or worked, it's just a choice equal to "Does she have blue eyes or brown?" I mean lots of girls, probably most did NOT make the choice themselves, and some were even forced to... So the point is there is no difference if she went or not, just that she's not independant yet...

#2 justbatya

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 02:49 PM

I think it's sick that girls would spend a whole year doing something they hate to make an image to ensure they get the right husband... Seminary is totally unesaccary (how is that spelled?) unless you'r doing it for the fun.... I mean do girls have a chiyuv to learn? no! So who cares if we went to seminary or worked, it's just a choice equal to "Does she have blue eyes or brown?" I mean lots of girls, probably most did NOT make the choice themselves, and some were even forced to... So the point is there is no difference if she went or not, just that she's not independant yet...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


what?

I know so many girls who have found a seminary year to be one of the most meaningful and worthwhile times in their lives, where they were engrossed in learning, becoming independent from their famlies and preparing for life as a grown woman.

Maybe you're talking about BY girls who would rather get married right after HS and go to sem just to gain points with shadchanim?

Which I neither identify with nor comment on, so I'll leave it at that

My poor SO still thinks that a Batya is a what, and not a who.


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#3 brainychic

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:34 PM

I think it's sick that girls would spend a whole year doing something they hate to make an image to ensure they get the right husband... Seminary is totally unesaccary (how is that spelled?) unless you'r doing it for the fun.... I mean do girls have a chiyuv to learn? no! So who cares if we went to seminary or worked, it's just a choice equal to "Does she have blue eyes or brown?" I mean lots of girls, probably most did NOT make the choice themselves, and some were even forced to... So the point is there is no difference if she went or not, just that she's not independant yet...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seminary is the best school year of your life, its when you decide who you want to be, what your goals are, and what career you wish to pursuee.

And saying that girls have no chiyuv to learn, then why go to school at all?

In my circle you are not forced to go to seminary, girls want to go to seminary, and it has changed so many girls for the better.
It is our choices... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -JK Rowling

#4 Milton

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:54 PM

......

#5 rinx

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 09:20 PM

well, ya, i am prbbly talking about by girls, myself not included, I'm saying that they go for the name, and thats a really stupid thing, because thier future mother in laws say "did go to sem?" like its equal to the question "Did he go to yeshiva?"

#6 brianna

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 09:21 PM

Gosh, I just remembered that I went to night sem when I was 16 (my first year of college). Darn. I guess I'm not as contrary as I thought. ;)

Just to set the record straight, though, shidduch nonsense was not my motivation AT ALL.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#7 rinx

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:00 PM

what does contrary mean? sorry to sound unintelligent, but...

#8 Reva

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:14 PM

con·trar·y (kŏn'trĕr'ē)
adj.
Opposed, as in character or purpose: contrary opinions; acts that are contrary to our code of ethics.
Opposite in direction or position: Our boat took a course contrary to theirs. See synonyms at opposite.
Music. Moving in the opposite direction at a fixed interval: playing scales in contrary motion.
Adverse; unfavorable: a contrary wind.
(also kən-trâr'ē) Given to recalcitrant behavior; willful or perverse.
n., pl. -ies.
Something that is opposite or contrary.
Either of two opposing or contrary things: “Truth is perhaps . . . a dynamic compound of opposites, savage contraries for a moment conjoined” (A. Bartlett Giamatti).
Logic. A proposition related to another in such a way that if the latter is true, the former must be false, but if the latter is false, the former is not necessarily true.
adv.
In an opposite direction or manner; counter: The judge ruled contrary to all precedent in the case.

idioms:
by contraries Obsolete.

In opposition to what is expected.
on the contrary
In opposition to what has been stated or what is expected: I'm not sick; on the contrary, I'm in the peak of health.
to the contrary
To the opposite effect from what has been stated or what is expected: Despite what you say to the contary, this contract is fair.

[Middle English contrarie, from Anglo-Norman, from Latin contrārius : contrā, against + -ārius, -ary.]

con'trar'i·ly (kŏn'trĕr-ə-lē, kŏn-trâr'-) adv.
con'trar'i·ness n.

#9 rinx

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:29 PM

teehee... thanx... so quweet...

#10 Reva

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:32 PM

I'm sorry, but you do sound unintelligent. It's one thing not to know what a word like pulchritudinous means (it means, to put it as simply as possible, beautiful), it's another not to know what a seventh grade level word like contrary means.

Why is seminary 'totally unnecessary?' Why should you pay $20,000 to have fun? Go to Six Flags for the day! Do girls have a chiyuv to be stupid? Do girls have a chiyuv not to know how to spell unnecessary or know what contrary means? Are girls not allowed to know a Ramban, or a Or Hachaim or a Kli Yakir, just because they are girls?

Many girls go to seminary and get their teachers' diplomas there. And not all seminaries are BJJ, many emphasize hashkafa. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a prospective mechutan to ask whether or not a girl went to seminary or straight to college/work. So many girls are changed into different, more mature people because of one year in seminary.

Do you personally know of anyone who was so adamantly agaisnt seminary that she spent nights crying in her bed, wishing not to go? Was she led to the plane with a gun held to her head? That is the meaning of forced. Anything else is unsureness. Of course there is a difference whether she went or not! When the "forced" girl came back was she completely traumatized or through being away from home did she become more independent?

Shidduchim play a role. I don't believe it's nonsense as Brianna says. Would you consider going out with any guy? Everything and anything influences shidduchim. As harsh as it may seem, you better get used to it.

I have no why you are so vehemently agaisnt seminary. Your post just seems to be a garbled rant agaisnt seminary with absolutely no rational reasons to back it up.

A debate is like chess. Learn the game, live by it.

#11 brianna

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:39 PM

Shidduchim play a role. I don't believe it's nonsense as Brianna says. Would you consider going out with any guy? Everything and anything influences shidduchim. As harsh as it may seem, you better get used to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It all depends on which social circles you want to marry into. I do understand that you can't have it both ways: scorn the way things are 'done' (ie: attending a BY type sem after BY high school) and expect to marry a guy from that derech.

As for your other points, I've rehashed my opinion on the issue on many previous topics. If someone would be generous enough to dig up the old seminary threads that would be great, but I really don't have the patience.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#12 Reva

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:51 PM

Shidduchim play a role. I don't believe it's nonsense as Brianna says. Would you consider going out with any guy? Everything and anything influences shidduchim. As harsh as it may seem, you better get used to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It all depends on which social circles you want to marry into. I do understand that you can't have it both ways: scorn the way things are 'done' (ie: attending a BY type sem after BY high school) and expect to marry a guy from that derech.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I believe that all social circles have certain expectations of their girls and guys. Love does conquer all, and once in a while there is that "Maid in Manhattan" story, but usually, there are certain factors that do affect marriage. Do you agree? I don't think that a Saudi Arabian princess and a Harlem hooligan will have a nice marriage, do you?

To clarify, my main point was 'would you consider going out with any guy?', to rebut rinx's point about eye coloring. If one has blue eyes or brown eyes is somewhat of a trivia detail, education is not. Tell me, really, would you consider going out with someone who has absolutely no education? (I am undoubtly unaware that intelligence surpasses education, and I'm not talking about a business tycoon who is just born with lucky genes. Of course, I won't say that there aren't such cases, but all that is a happenstance.)

#13 Bluelaptop

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:03 PM

.
Sleeping Beauty came at 4
Her eyes were filled with tears.
"Oh my," she said, "I overslept
About a hundred years."

(Mr. Cuckoo's Clock Shop)

#14 Reva

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:07 PM

What would you classify it as? I was really trying to be as nice as possible.

#15 brianna

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:10 PM

To clarify, my main point was 'would you consider going out with any guy?'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course I wouldn't go out with just any guy. I just happen to have realized at a younger age than most that my values are slightly different than the ones I was brought up with and that I will be looking for different things in a mate. The yeshiva/seminary type criteria just don't rank terribly high on my list. I'm more into intelligence, ambition, communication skills, college education and things like that. I'm becoming the kind of woman the kind of man I'd want to marry would be interested in. I'm not sure what this girl's problem is. If you don't want to go to sem, don't go!
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#16 Reva

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:16 PM

To clarify, my main point was 'would you consider going out with any guy?'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course I wouldn't go out with just any guy. I just happen to have realized at a younger age than most that my values are slightly different than the ones I was brought up with and that I will be looking for different things in a mate. The yeshiva/seminary type criteria just don't rank terribly high on my list. I'm more into intelligence, ambition, communication skills, college education and things like that. I'm becoming the kind of woman the kind of man I'd want to marry would be interested in. I'm not sure what this girl's problem is. If you don't want to go to sem, don't go!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Exactly. :thumbsup:

My point was:

Brianna: intelligence, ambition, communication skills, college education

is equal to:

Yeshivishe people: seminary/yeshiva, family name etc.

People have different values. As I mentioned before as well, I don't understand what Rinx is getting at either!

#17 comeon

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:53 PM

Most of my friends were NOT forced to go to sem but rather wanted to!!!
I was looking forward to my Israel year ever since 4th grade (after I gave up the idea that I wanted to be a senior kallah)

#18 Shoshi

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 12:06 AM

Many girls go to seminary and get their teachers' diplomas there. And not all seminaries are BJJ, many emphasize hashkafa. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a prospective mechtuan to ask whether or not a girl went to seminary or straight to college/work. So many girls are changed into different, more mature people because of one year in seminary.


<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Your points about "contrary" and the spelling of unnecessary are well-taken, but similarly, I can't imagine that "mechtuan" is spelled correctly.

#19 Reva

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 12:09 AM

Mechutan.

You are correct. Please excuse the typo. (Alas, it happens to the best of us...;) )

#20 brianna

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 12:17 AM

IMHO, the problem has more to do with young women lacking the conviction to know what they want out of life and take it than being 'forced' to go to seminary or anywhere else. Sure there's pressure to do what everyone else does. But when you know what you want, everything else becomes clear.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.




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