Jump to content


Photo

Who Sold Yosef?


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 the Real Adiel

the Real Adiel

    The REAL Adiel

  • Members
  • 7,177 posts

Posted 06 January 2006 - 09:25 AM

I saw conflicting Rashboms in last weeks Parshah, he says the brothers were planning to sell yosef but the middyonim got to the pit while they were away and sold him to the yishmaeylim.

Later in the Parsha the Rashbom says the Yishmaylim and the Midyonim are one and the same (Which leads me to ask why the Torah switched names in middle)

The easy answer is that the Rashbom was just bring down different P'shutim, just wondering if anyone has an alternate explanation.

BrooklynBeans.com

I am Adiel's Advocate.


#2 Guest_melech_*

Guest_melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2006 - 11:33 AM

.

#3 Gabbe

Gabbe

  • Members
  • 10,583 posts

Posted 08 January 2006 - 12:00 PM

.
The author hereby expressly and unconditionally reserves all rights stemming from his posts (including copyrights) despite any delusions the administration may have.

#4 mosheshmeal

mosheshmeal

    Verisimilitudinous

  • Members
  • 11,141 posts

Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:21 PM

I did.
I'm very sorry and I promise never to do it again.
I was desperate for the money. Y'See, it was winter, and I needed them shoes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is it always about the money?

mosheshmeal
.

'I'm a woman, Mary. I can be as contrary as I choose.'

~ Violet, Dowager Countess of Grantham


#5 Gabbe

Gabbe

  • Members
  • 10,583 posts

Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:22 PM

.
The author hereby expressly and unconditionally reserves all rights stemming from his posts (including copyrights) despite any delusions the administration may have.

#6 mosheshmeal

mosheshmeal

    Verisimilitudinous

  • Members
  • 11,141 posts

Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:27 PM

Please, MS. Two things make the world go 'round. One of them is money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By us they say:

על שלשה דברים העולם עומד - על הממון ועל הכסף ועל ה'געלט

mosheshmeal
.

'I'm a woman, Mary. I can be as contrary as I choose.'

~ Violet, Dowager Countess of Grantham


#7 Gabbe

Gabbe

  • Members
  • 10,583 posts

Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:35 PM

.
The author hereby expressly and unconditionally reserves all rights stemming from his posts (including copyrights) despite any delusions the administration may have.

#8 the Real Adiel

the Real Adiel

    The REAL Adiel

  • Members
  • 7,177 posts

Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:49 PM

In Bereishit 37:28, the Rashbam comments that the brothers were eating at a distance from the pit waiting for the Yishma'eilim whom they had previously seen in verse 25. However, before those Yishme'eilim arrived, a different group, the Midyanim, passed by and pulled Yoseph out of the pit and sold Yoseph to the Yishma'eilim. The brothers, who eating at a distance, were unaware of the sale and when Yoseph says later in 45:4 that the brothers sold him, he means that the brothers indirectly sold Yoseph in that they set the events into motion that led to his sale. But the brothers didn't literally sell him to the Yishma'eilim.
The Rashbam offers a second interpretation that  the brothers literally sold Yoseph to the Yishmaeilim, but still holds that the Midyanim physically pulled him out of the pit at the brothers' request.
According to the Rashbam's first interpretation, the subject of the three verbs, va-yimshechu, va-ya'alu and va-yimkeru, is the Midyanim. Even according to the Rashbam's second interpretation, the subject of va-yimshechu is till the Midyanim. This is in contrast to Rashi who writes that the subject of va-yimshechu is the brothers. The Rashbam's second interpretation only speaks to the issue of the subject of the verb, va-yimkeru.

The difficulty, as you note, is that in verse 37:36, the Midanim are described as the sellers of Yoseph. What happened to the Yishma'eilim to whom the Midyanim sold Yoseph?
The Rashbam answers that Medan, Midyan, and Yishma'el were all brothers in that they descended from Avraham and that the terms are basically interchangeable so that Medan and Yishma'eil are two names of the same group of people. The "Yishma'eilim" brought Yoseph down to Egypt and the "Medanim" sold him, but in fact they are two different names of the same group of people.
According the Rashbam, there were two separate groups of people. There were the Midyanim who pulled Yoseph from the pit. And there were the Yishma'eilim/Midadim who brought him to Egypt. Yishma'eil and Medan being two alternative names for the same group.
The Rashbam differs from Bereishit Rabba 84:22 which holds there were three distinct peoples and from Rashi on 38:28 who seems to hold that there were two groups but he labels them Yishma'eilim and Midyanim/Midanim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Good P'shat, Why does it keep switching between the names if they are one and the same.

BrooklynBeans.com

I am Adiel's Advocate.


#9 Guest_melech_*

Guest_melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:56 PM

.

#10 artscroll

artscroll

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 6,681 posts

Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:25 AM

Were these Yishmaelim second cousins of Yosef's?

#11 Guest_melech_*

Guest_melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:45 AM

.

#12 spectra

spectra

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,077 posts

Posted 17 July 2016 - 07:39 AM

 When Joseph was walking towards his brothers, they were plotting to kill him, but Reuben the eldest, who was answerable for Joseph, said to throw him in the cistern, so he could get him later and return him to Jacob. It was Judah who came up with the idea to sell Joseph to the Ishmaelites and it was Joseph's brothers who pulled him up out of the cistern and sold him to the Ishmaelites for 20 shekels. And after all that, Reuben ended up going along with the cover-up scheme.

 

When I read the stuff in this thread, it looks like an attempt of the same cover-up that Joseph's brothers did back in the day. As they only try to reconcile it and square it for their own conciousness's sake and to place the guilt on others, in re-writing history to suit themselves. No different than what Joseph's brothers did, when they brought Joseph's coat covered in blood to Jacob, as if they were all innocent....

 

But as you know, the story goes on and they had to face up to the truth of what they did, both to Joseph and in lying to their father. And by the hand of God, Joseph redeemed their lives at that time, but not with money.

 

Lucifer the serpent thought he could re-write the history of God's word and claim his own self-perceived conciousness while calling God sin and himself innocent. But Day One does come back around, with no place to hide. There are those who embrace God's first spoken and those who can only eternally run from it.

 

Joseph's dreams were not his own self-perceived conciousness.

 

The Israelites that built the golden calf and then refused to enter the promised land chose their own self-perceived conciousness. When the generation that God raised up to fulfill His Covenant word to Abraham were about to enter the promised land, Moses opened their eyes to the fact that their clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on their feet. To be concious of God and that God is with them, both as a whole and individually. Joshua and Caleb knew that through all of their travel, never losing heart....

 

There are those who know, recognize and accept the fulfillment of God's Covenant Word. And there are those who do not. They can only go around searching for themselves.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users