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What is Modern Orthodox?


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#21 Opus

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 02:36 PM

Mitzvah tantz violates no halachos. Have you ever been to one? Compare that with the 'chosonkallah' dances that the MO have....


Sure it does. It violates tznius.

I have been to many MO weddings and even had one myself. And I've never seen the chosson dancing with the kallah.

Actually, I saw it once at a yeshivish-lite wedding (see next post for definition).

#22 Opus

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 02:39 PM

True, of course. But the "Modern Orthodox" TRA meant when he said "relaxed in halacha" are the kind that go mixed swimming and mixed dancing, the kind who be-shitah aren't shomer negiyah. This group doesn't even bother looking for heterim for anything they do.

I think of them as Modern Orthodox-lite.

And, for what it's worth, I bumped into a cousin the other day (Torah Vodaas and Adelphia) holding hands with his girlfriend, soon to be kallah. He is not a yeshivishe bum but also not MO. I think of him as yeshivish-lite.

#23 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:36 PM

Big Difference, MO bends or ignores Halachos to make life easier and to integrate more into the western world.

Such as? Institutionally now, not just what some people do or don't do.

Well institutionally it is hard to bring anything concrete, mainly because there is no central MO institution that puts out whats accepted and what is not. Not covering your hair, wearing pants and mixed dancing are things that the MO crowd has overall accepted, there are many modern orthodox who cover the hair and don't wear pants, however it's accepted and you will find many of these people in your average Young Israel shul. This is VERY different from the changes that have been made to chassidus.

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#24 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:40 PM

You are incorrect.  The halacha psukah is that clapping and dancing is assur on Shabbos and Yom Tov.  The early Chassidim decided that this was no fun so they did it anyway.  Then came some chassidishe poskim who thought up a way to permit it.

You're right that not sleeping in the sukkah is only Lubavitch.  I meant not eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres.

Are you kidding about zmanim?  I think it's Munkatch who davens a shacharis/minchah.  Just take a look at which shuls have minyanim that start at 10 and 11 in the morning.  All chassidish.

My point is that chassidim find ways to justify these things, and the modern orthodox find ways to justify their own.  As long as they are within some reasonable definition of halacha then gezunterheit.

I believe it's a Mishna in Taanos that says dancing is assur. My rebbe told me a story that when he was in Telz there was a simcha of some sort and the bachurim were dancing. R' Moshe was there and put a stop to it instantly. I approached a chasid on the topic, he said they walk in a circle which is not really considered dancing. I have been to many shuls where they do a lot more then walk in a circle?!? Anyone here been to the kosover shteeble in Tzvas for Friday Shabbos? Now these guys know how to dance!

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#25 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:43 PM

My point is that chassidim find ways to justify these things, and the modern orthodox find ways to justify their own. As long as they are within some reasonable definition of halacha then gezunterheit.

There is clearly a difference on the direction in which both sects are going, and why they are justifying what they do. While chassidim do bend Halachos, one cannot ascribe it to pressure from the secular world.

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#26 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:47 PM

Mizvah tanz

Mitzvah tantz violates no halachos. Have you ever been to one? Compare that with the 'chosonkallah' dances that the MO have....

R' Yosef Rosenblums son who was my chavrusa for two years told me one of his children had a Mitzva Tanz because the other side wanted it. He walked out in middle and said "this is what a Mitzva Tanz is?" He would never let any of his other kids have one. Just putting a lady on display in front of many men is a tznius problem.

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#27 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:49 PM

True, of course. But the "Modern Orthodox" TRA meant when he said "relaxed in halacha" are the kind that go mixed swimming and mixed dancing, the kind who be-shitah aren't shomer negiyah. This group doesn't even bother looking for heterim for anything they do.

I think of them as Modern Orthodox-lite.

And, for what it's worth, I bumped into a cousin the other day (Torah Vodaas and Adelphia) holding hands with his girlfriend, soon to be kallah. He is not a yeshivishe bum but also not MO. I think of him as yeshivish-lite.

Most people that would think of themselves as MO fall into this discription

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#28 Opus

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:06 PM

Most people that would think of themselves as MO fall into this discription

In your experience.

The bnei torah I know who are Modern Orthodox would never walk down the street holding their girlfriend's hand.

#29 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:14 PM

Again, most of the people who consider themselves MO fall into this description. There maybe a minority who don't and this minority might say that they are not true MO. However the majority of people who are Shomer Shabbos, keep Kashrus, and taharus Hamishpachah but are very leniant on many of the other Halachos consider themselves MO.

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#30 Nechama

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:14 PM

which is why I see the lable of MO as a dumping ground that ranges from "not quite oreo yeshivish" to "flexable with halacha"
If I have interesting things on the walls, no one will notice how dirty the floors are - right?

#31 Cheesehead and Co.

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:41 PM

do u think that in a mitzvah tantz the kallah is any more on display than she is throughout the whole wedding?
i had one, and it didn't feel like it!

#32 the Real Adiel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:43 PM

do u think that in a mitzvah tantz the kallah is any more on display than she is throughout the whole wedding?
i had one, and it didn't feel like it!

By the Mitzvah Tanz she is on display to MEN, That's the difference

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#33 cynic

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:53 PM

If a Mitzhvah tantz is not assur, then why not allow couples to dance together? Wouldn't that make a simcha more enjoyable, dancing with your SO?

The difference between MO and Chassidus in this regards is that MO doesn't preach anything, but chassidus is constantly preaching all their chumros and why they're cool and all, and then they go ahead and dance with a married woman. But chas v'shalom a Sheva Brochos with ONLY family, be mixed.

#34 reelee23

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 07:51 PM

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#35 hashkcoffee

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 07:57 PM

"All the men" are your brothers, uncles, and grandfathers. And you don't "dance". It's a formal, stilted, awkward, symbolic "march" up and down about five steps, while you avert your gaze -- and most choson kallahs cry. Pity I dont have a scanner to show you what mine looks :)

#36 reelee23

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:00 PM

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#37 reelee23

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:03 PM

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#38 payel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:34 PM

I'm wondering how many MO people you all actually know. I do consider myself Modern Orthodox (no stone throwing, please) I live in a MO community, and am very acquainted with it from a halakhic standpoint. As for me, I do follow halakha as prescribed by the rabbi that I asked my questions to. Many MO communities do not feel bound by every minute ruling of the "Gedolim" because we have a different view of secular culture, and think differently about many things. There is no Sanhedrin, and one is not bound to adhere to the rulings of any Rabbi, especially when it is clear that they are not talking to us. When we read all types of literature, even "kefira" and kefira, it would be difficult to tell us not to read a certain book.

There are people who don't follow halakha in every community. Why is cheating in business more acceptable than mixed swimming? One could argue that many people who do follow halakha (tznius in particular) are only doing it because that is what their friends and neighbors do. To say that not following halakha is a matter of ideology is ridiculous. It seems to me that many people here define religiosity based on dress, which we all know is not true.

Also, I never thought I would come to defending this since I DO NOT agree with their viewpoint, but groups like Edah and the like do believe that they are working within the framework of halakha. They just have a different attitude toward halakha and change. While I believe this approach is dangerous, they do not. But it is not as if they are changing halakha willy nilly. They see this as a continuation of the halakhic process that began with Moshe at Sinai.

Alu v'elu divrei elokim hayim.....

Sorry for the tirade.

#39 reelee23

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:41 PM

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#40 payel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:44 PM

I'm wondering how many MO people you all actually know.

Very many. It's how I grew up.

And I agree with your point. MO is dying, though the children of MO who become "right wing" are really just YU-type who are a different category. So People aren't moving closer together, just different categories are being created.




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