[the Real Adiel]

This is not a post to stress what is good or bad about modern orthodoxy. Just define the difference between modern orthodox and other streams.

[BaronPhilip]

No one has agreed on a definition.

Some people think Modern Orthodox would be a guy like me, a frum guy who fully believes in and is fully committed to Torah MiSinai and halakha and who also reads academic books on Jewish history, values the study of philosophy and other secular studies, and values good secular art, literature, and music that can help a person improve his mind and his avodas Hashem. That would make Rav Shamshon Rephoel Hirsch and Rav Dovid Tzvi Hoffman Modern Orthodox.

Some other people think Modern Orthodox refers to a type of person who basically isn't really Orthodox, the type who thinks there is nothing wrong with mixed swimming and mixed dancing, and doesn't see a need to be makpid on the halchos of tznius or negiyah. This type of person is really more like a Conservative Jew in that they pick and choose whatever they want from the religion, whatever makes them "spiritual". They are also like the Conservatives in that they tend to think that mankind is "progressing" and becoming more morally enlightened. Accordingly, they get their their "hashkafos" from whatever is politically correct on the campuses of Harvard and Yale, and not from the Torah. Then they go look for Torah sources they can twist to support their ideas. These people tend to think that Chazal were (c"v!) backwards, racist, homophobic, and chauvanistic towards women. They want to change everything so that women can get aliyos and become rabbis, so that openly gay people can be part of the shul community. They also think that Jews should "keep up with the times" and be involved in anything the goyim are doing, including Britney Spears. They've set up an organization called "Edah" to advance their ideas, which are basically where Conservative Judaism was a century ago. (except for the fact that the founders of Conservative Judaism were actually real scholars with systematic ideas, and not whiny rabble rousers like Avi Weiss of Riverdale...)

[Opus]

BaronPhilip, on Nov 19 2003, 09:36 PM, said:

Some people think Modern Orthodox would be a guy like me, a frum guy who fully believes in and is fully committed to Torah MiSinai and halakha and who also reads academic books on Jewish history, values the study of philosophy and other secular studies, and values good secular art, literature, and music that can help a person improve his mind and his avodas Hashem. That would make Rav Shamshon Rephoel Hirsch and Rav Dovid Tzvi Hoffman Modern Orthodox.

I am surprised that you would lump together R' Samson Raphael Hirsch and R' David Tzvi Hoffman. They actually had significantly different approaches, but I prefer to speak of the Hirschian and Hildesheimer approaches.

R' Samson Raphael Hirsch had truly traditional beliefs and approaches to Torah. His "modernity" was in his acceptance of many aspects of secular culture. Poetry, literature, music, art. These were some of the things that Rav Hirsch found valuable.

R' Ariel Hildesheimer was not particularly interested in culture. His "modernity" was his usage of modern academic approaches to history and texts. Granted, with enough skepticism and caution that he remained firmly committed to Orthodoxy. But his usage of such modern techniques in the study of Torah, something that R' David Tzvi Hoffman continued as did the Sridei Eish, was something that Rav Hirsch firmly opposed.

Thus, in my view, there is the Hirschian cultural Modern Orthodoxy and the Hildesheimer intellectual Modern Orthodoxy.

I affilliate with the latter but my rejection of secular culture forces me live in the yeshivish world.

[Torah Hashkafa]

deleted

[BaronPhilip]

Opus:

Everything you write in your post is, of course, 100% accurate and on the mark. There is definitely a distinction between the two types. The only reason I "lumped them together" was because I wanted to stress the difference between the kinds of Modern Orthodoxy that actually believe in the Torah (both of those two) and the kinds that don't (the Edah movement).

I also may have lumped them together because I happen to subscribe to both of them.

[reelee23]

BaronPhilip, on Nov 19 2003, 09:36 PM, said:

Some people think Modern Orthodox would be a guy like me, a frum guy who fully believes in and is fully committed to Torah MiSinai and halakha and who also reads academic books on Jewish history, values the study of philosophy and other secular studies, and values good secular art, literature, and music that can help a person improve his mind and his avodas Hashem. ....

Some other people think Modern Orthodox refers to a type of person who basically isn't really Orthodox, the type who thinks there is nothing wrong with mixed swimming and mixed dancing, and doesn't see a need to be makpid on the halchos of tznius or negiyah. This type of person is really more like a Conservative Jew in that they pick and choose whatever they want from the religion, whatever makes them "spiritual"....

I think there are two types of people who call themselves Modern Orthodox. The first is your first paragraph, and the second is your second.

[Nechama]

MO is sorta a dumping ground for people who dont fit other characterizations

[Opus]

Nechama, on Nov 20 2003, 12:19 AM, said:

MO is sorta a dumping ground for people who dont fit other characterizations

That, and Lubavitch

[Opus]

Torah Hashkafa, on Nov 19 2003, 11:38 PM, said:

One type of M.O. Jew is someone who keeps some Halachos but not others.

Good thing there's nothing like that in the yeshivishe and chassidishe communities

[the Real Adiel]

Opus, on Nov 20 2003, 01:10 PM, said:

Torah Hashkafa, on Nov 19 2003, 11:38 PM, said:

One type of M.O. Jew is someone who keeps some Halachos but not others.

Good thing there's nothing like that in the yeshivishe and chassidishe communities

I think what he means is that's the policy and accepted practice

[Opus]

the Real Adiel, on Nov 20 2003, 01:21 PM, said:

I think what he means is that's the policy and accepted practice

And there are no chassidishe minhagim that violate halacha, or violated halacha until they reinterpreted it to fit their minhagim?

Like dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov. Not sleeping in the sukkah. Davening after the zman. Mizvah tanz

[the Real Adiel]

So we have so far:

1) Hirshian philosophy
2) Someone who is very relaxed with Halachos (yes I know I am oversimplifying)
3) Someone who does not fit into any of the "boxes" of the other camps lumps himself with MO

[the Real Adiel]

Opus, on Nov 20 2003, 01:26 PM, said:

the Real Adiel, on Nov 20 2003, 01:21 PM, said:

I think what he means is that's the policy and accepted practice

And there are no chassidishe minhagim that violate halacha, or violated halacha until they reinterpreted it to fit their minhagim?

Like dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov. Not sleeping in the sukkah. Davening after the zman. Mizvah tanz

Big Difference, MO bends or ignores Halachos to make life easier and to integrate more into the western world. Also while in every generation we find certain halachos ignored for no good reason. It depends if thats the exeption or if it happens often

[Opus]

the Real Adiel, on Nov 20 2003, 01:34 PM, said:

Big Difference, MO bends or ignores Halachos to make life easier and to integrate more into the western world.

Such as? Institutionally now, not just what some people do or don't do.

[Opus]

the Real Adiel, on Nov 20 2003, 01:31 PM, said:

So we have so far:

1) Hirshian philosophy
2) Someone who is very relaxed with Halachos (yes I know I am oversimplifying)
3) Someone who does not fit into any of the "boxes" of the other camps lumps himself with MO

4) Hildesheimer philosophy

[wasalubab]

Opus, on Nov 20 2003, 01:26 PM, said:

the Real Adiel, on Nov 20 2003, 01:21 PM, said:

I think what he means is that's the policy and accepted practice

And there are no chassidishe minhagim that violate halacha, or violated halacha until they reinterpreted it to fit their minhagim?

Like dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov. Not sleeping in the sukkah. Davening after the zman. Mizvah tanz

Opus you are lumping different things together: Dancing and clapping has concrete sources.Mitzvah tanz: I don't know of any clear violations, though some Rabbis felt it was immodest.Not Sleeping in the Sukka: This is only todays Lubavitch, who have this 'custom' it is indeed against halachah and borderline keffirah. (as an aside I recently checked out the claim that Belzer chasidim 'don't sleep in the sukkah' totally false, a chosid who had just been there for sukkos told me that in their gigantic sukka in kiryat belz about 500 beds were set up for the visitors)No hasidic group has ever claimed you don't need to be makpid on zmanim.(davening mincha after 'our' shkia has concrete sources, even the baal hataya was meikel to daven erev shabes in bein hashmoshos and he was makpid on our shkia, please don't rely on me, just my thoughts)

[BaronPhilip]

Opus, on Nov 20 2003, 01:57 PM, said:

the Real Adiel, on Nov 20 2003, 01:31 PM, said:

So we have so far:

1) Hirshian philosophy
2) Someone who is very relaxed with Halachos (yes I know I am oversimplifying)
3) Someone who does not fit into any of the "boxes" of the other camps lumps himself with MO

4) Hildesheimer philosophy

Maybe it should be

1a: Hirsch philosophy

1b: Hildesheimer philosophy

[Opus]

You are incorrect. The halacha psukah is that clapping and dancing is assur on Shabbos and Yom Tov. The early Chassidim decided that this was no fun so they did it anyway. Then came some chassidishe poskim who thought up a way to permit it.

You're right that not sleeping in the sukkah is only Lubavitch. I meant not eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres.

Are you kidding about zmanim? I think it's Munkatch who davens a shacharis/minchah. Just take a look at which shuls have minyanim that start at 10 and 11 in the morning. All chassidish.

My point is that chassidim find ways to justify these things, and the modern orthodox find ways to justify their own. As long as they are within some reasonable definition of halacha then gezunterheit.

[BaronPhilip]

Opus, on Nov 20 2003, 02:10 PM, said:

My point is that chassidim find ways to justify these things, and the modern orthodox find ways to justify their own.  As long as they are within some reasonable definition of halacha then gezunterheit.

True, of course. But the "Modern Orthodox" TRA meant when he said "relaxed in halacha" are the kind that go mixed swimming and mixed dancing, the kind who be-shitah aren't shomer negiyah. This group doesn't even bother looking for heterim for anything they do.

[hashkcoffee]

Opus, on Nov 20 2003, 01:26 PM, said:

.  Mizvah tanz

Mitzvah tantz violates no halachos. Have you ever been to one? Compare that with the 'chosonkallah' dances that the MO have....