[rashi613]

Here's an example:

On Pesach, many people refrain from eating Gebrokts (Matzoh that comes in contact with any form of moisture that contains water).

For many people this would seem to be a Chumra, as this would mean that the person is being super careful to avoid chometz.
For many Chassidim, it is merely a Minhag and nothing more. It is not being done to be more careful; it is being done as a minhag based on a specific philosophy.

Can we say that most minhagim are actually chumros? Or that most chumros are minhagim? Are they totally different? If so, what's the difference for them regarding Maaseh B'poel? Should we act on them differently and how do we know which one is which?

[shaya_getzl]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 12:52 PM, said:

Here's an example:

On Pesach, many people refrain from eating Gebrokts (Matzoh that comes in contact with any form of moisture that contains water).

For many people this would seem to be a Chumra, as this would mean that the person is being super careful to avoid chometz.
For many Chassidim, it is merely a Minhag and nothing more. It is not being done to be more careful; it is being done as a minhag based on a specific philosophy.

Can we say that most minhagim are actually chumros? Or that most chumros are minhagim? Are they totally different? If so, what's the difference for them regarding Maaseh B'poel? Should we act on them differently and how do we know which one is which?

It's a Chovas Daas.

[Melech]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 12:52 PM, said:

For many people this would seem to be a Chumra, as this would mean that the person is being super careful to avoid chometz.
For many Chassidim, it is merely a Minhag and nothing more. It is not being done to be more careful; it is being done as a minhag based on a specific philosophy.

One clue would be to trace the sources back. In this case, I would look at what the Shulchan Aruch HaRav says and how he characterizes this practice. And low and behold, he himself calls it a "chumra". That's on clue right there.

[shaya_getzl]

melech, on Feb 13 2006, 12:58 PM, said:

One clue would be to trace the sources back. In this case, I would look at what the Shulchan Aruch HaRav says and how he characterizes this practice. And low and behold, he himself calls it a "chumra". That's on clue right there.

melech,

Do you have Chovas Daas handy ?

[Melech]

shaya_getzl, on Feb 13 2006, 12:59 PM, said:

melech,

Do you have Chovas Daas handy ?

no

[rashi613]

melech, on Feb 13 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

One clue would be to trace the sources back. In this case, I would look at what the Shulchan Aruch HaRav says and how he characterizes this practice. And low and behold, he himself calls it a "chumra". That's on clue right there.

It is a known fact within Lubavitch that what the Alter-Rebbe writes in the Shulchan-Aruch is for technical halacha for the world at large and in no way dictates what the practice within Lubavitch itself actually is. For more info, see the various differences between what the Alter-Rebbe writes in Shulchan Aruch and what he writes in his siddur (printes in many editions of the Tehilas HaShem).

Anyways, that's just an example. I want to know, in general, if there is a way to classify them and if so, what would be the practical difference between them?

[Melech]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 01:09 PM, said:

Anyways, that's just an example. I want to know, in general, if there is a way to classify them and if so, what would be the practical difference between them?

One practical difference would be the mechanism for stopping the practice. I'd imagine a minhag would require hatarat nedarim and a chumra, if you mistakenly thought was required, would not require hatarat nedarim when you stop doing it.
Also, if the chumra weren't widespread, you'd have trouble doing it in public because of issues of yohora. As opposed to a minhag.

[skifree]

A chumra starts as a stringency not to transgress a mitzvah deoraisa. A minhag is passed down and may become a halacha with the acceptance apon the nation. There is a big difference but they get confused all too often.

[rashi613]

The confusing part: Does a Chumra become a minhag over time (like in the following generation)? How come some things remain a chumra and some things become a minhag? Usually a minhag is something that we do that doesn't actually make sense (like dancing with aravos at a wedding, in the Gemara), but many things that we call minhagim nowadays, makes sense to the extent that they seem to be chumras?!

[skifree]

A minhag does not become a chumra over time.

[rashi613]

skifree, on Feb 13 2006, 10:20 AM, said:

A minhag does not become a chumra over time.

A chumra becoming a minhag is the issue at hand...

[skifree]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 01:22 PM, said:

A chumra becoming a minhag is the issue at hand...

Since when does a chumra become a minhag?

[rashi613]

skifree, on Feb 13 2006, 10:23 AM, said:

Since when does a chumra become a minhag?

dos iz mein kasha!!

[skifree]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

dos iz mein kasha!!

You are asking why or asking if it does become?

[rashi613]

skifree, on Feb 13 2006, 10:26 AM, said:

You are asking why or asking if it does become?

If and why or why not.

I'm not asking, I'm discussing...

[Moshi]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

dos iz mein kasha!!

mmmm kasha

Does anyone besides chassidim avoid all contact between water and matza? Is it all chassidim?

[skifree]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 01:27 PM, said:

If and why or why not.

I'm not asking, I'm discussing...

I answered you before and said a minhag does not become a chumra and vice versa. You commented that it is the issue at hand. So I solved the problem what is there to discuss!

[rashi613]

Moshi, on Feb 13 2006, 10:29 AM, said:

mmmm kasha

Does anyone besides chassidim avoid all contact between water and matza? Is it all chassidim?

Various chassidim and non-chassidim have this minhag/chumra. I think most, from both sides, eat Gebrokts, though.

skifree, on Feb 13 2006, 10:29 AM, said:

I answered you before and said a minhag does not become a chumra and vice versa. You commented that it is the issue at hand. So I solved the problem what is there to discuss!

You haven't provided any satisfying explanation to backup your statement yet.

I'm waiting....

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

Various chassidim and non-chassidim have this minhag/chumra. I think most, from both sides, eat Gebrokts, though.

NO chassidim that I know of eat gebrokts, at least not "officially".

Besides this is hardly the only insane minhag for pesach.
Some people don't eat fish, others stay away from chicken, many don't eat milchigs. Some refuse to use any oil except shmaltz etc...

[skifree]

rashi613, on Feb 13 2006, 01:35 PM, said:

Various chassidim and non-chassidim have this minhag/chumra. I think most, from both sides, eat Gebrokts, though.
You haven't provided any satisfying explanation to backup your statement yet.

I'm waiting....

You and everyone else! Sorry keep waiting to be satisfied.