[Pure Myrrh]

It would be really ironic if it turned out that the "grounded" female flight attendants are actually hard-working Kollel wives just trying to support their husbands... :D

[justajew]

I have no issue with the fact that thes rabbis are flying first class, they should. They are elderly leaders of a large following and they are entitled to be comfortable for a long flight. If it was my grandfather, you could be sure I would buy him a first class ticket. The issue is the messege about women and the outside world that I have. This smacks of a certain other holy person who had minimal contact to the outside world, and because of thishad no understanding about avodat Hashem in the real world. Hashem told R Shimon Bar Yochai to go back to the cave until he could learn to understand that the world functions on a teva level, and people function in that world every day. He was not allowed to mix with general society until he could accept how such a society exists. I see the same thing here. These rabbis live in a cave, and now that they are embarking on a journey outside of the cave, they should take a lesson from RSBY's book, and understand that they can't make the world a cave. Women do exist in the world, and people do have to aknowledge their existance virtually every day. There is no sin in that. How can we be expected to follow these rabbis, if they can't understand how the world works and how to survive in it?

[trixies86]

grend123, on May 9 2006, 02:12 PM, said:

The chillul hashem involved in this article outweighs any positive benefits the flight might have.

true, maybe the article shouldn't have been written or shouldn't have been written in that way

[grend123]

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 02:39 PM, said:

true, maybe the article shouldn't have been written or shouldn't have been written in that way

Or maybe they shouldn't act in a way which is a chillul hashem if people find out?

[KugelKing]

grend123, on May 9 2006, 02:41 PM, said:

Or maybe they shouldn't act in a way which is a chillul hashem if people find out?

Why make a fuss over nothing! Have u ever been on a recent El-Al flight, the whole 1st class is 6-8 seats max. so EL AL gave them 1st class. big deal. its ynet that twisted it to look like the taliban. when the tosher rebbe goes to europe ,they charter a jet for him. Its supposed to be a free country.

[trixies86]

grend123, on May 9 2006, 02:41 PM, said:

Or maybe they shouldn't act in a way which is a chillul hashem if people find out?

maybe people shouldn't publicize things that people may take as a chillul hashem.
it isn't a chillul hashem by the way. a chillul hashem is when you act in a way adverse to the torah and it reflects badly on god. If I walk around disneyland in long sleaves in the summer and people say crazy jews sweating themselves to death in the summer and think orthodox jews are crazy, I did not make a chillul hashem.
but then (don't take this as a personal attack, its just a statement) I remember that you are a hopless case. I will never convince you of anything and you wont convice me. so forget it.

[grend123]

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

maybe people shouldn't publicize things that people may take as a chillul hashem.
it isn't a chillul hashem by the way. a chillul hashem is when you act in a way adverse to the torah and it reflects badly on god. If I walk around disneyland in long sleaves in the summer and people say crazy jews sweating themselves to death in the summer and think orthodox jews are crazy, I did not make a chillul hashem.

It's a chillul hashem to ask El Al to hide women as if they were ervah by definition. Sorry, just is.

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

but then (don't take this as a personal attack, its just a statement) I remember that you are a hopless case.

Certainly I don't take it personally; from you I take that as a compliment.

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

I will never convince you of anything and you wont convice me. so forget it.

Indeed, because I am into rationalism and you are a classic demonstration of the facts that (1) higher average intelligence for Jews doesn't mean we don't have outliers and (2) a Beis Yaakov education is like fabric softener for the brain.

[Machmir]

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 01:50 PM, said:

maybe people shouldn't publicize things that people may take as a chillul hashem.
it isn't a chillul hashem by the way. a chillul hashem is when you act in a way adverse to the torah and it reflects badly on god. If I walk around disneyland in long sleaves in the summer and people say crazy jews sweating themselves to death in the summer and think orthodox jews are crazy, I did not make a chillul hashem.
but then (don't take this as a personal attack, its just a statement) I remember that you are a hopless case. I will never convince you of anything and you wont convice me. so forget it.

It certainly isnt a Kiddush Hashem, to ban women flight attendants, to cover television screens with plastic and to buy out all seats in 1st class so as to ensure that no women are in sight.

[trixies86]

Machmir, on May 9 2006, 02:55 PM, said:

It certainly isnt a Kiddush Hashem, to ban women flight attendants, to cover television screens with plastic and to buy out all seats in 1st class so as to ensure that no women are in sight.

for 1 flight women are not attending, 6 seats are bought out, and the screens are not flashing and annoying the passangers in first class. I've seen worse.

what you guys are missing is that these two rabbis have no interest in comeing here. they are doing us a favor (maybe not you, but then you arn't paying for it). they don't want to come for a few reasons. probably because they didn't want to see half dressed flight attendants or any flirty attendants at all. another reason because flights have tv screens playing (when I flew from israel it was bikini clad cameron diaz, on jumbo screen so the whole plane could see, with zoom ins- I understand them well).
so in order to get the rabbonim to agree to come, some people made a deal with elal that for one flight they would do these things, and then the rabbonim agreed to come.
I don't know that much about the rebbe, but R' Aryeh leib has many chumros that you wont even begin to understand. he is not asking you to adher to them. why are you telling him to change?

[cynic]

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

for 1 flight women are not attending, 6 seats are bought out, and the screens are not flashing and annoying the passangers in first class. I've seen worse.

what you guys are missing is that these two rabbis have no interest in comeing here. they are doing us a favor (maybe not you, but then you arn't paying for it). they don't want to come for a few reasons. probably because they didn't want to see half dressed flight attendants or any flirty attendants at all. another reason because flights have tv screens playing (when I flew from israel it was bikini clad cameron diaz, on jumbo screen so the whole plane could see, with zoom ins- I understand them well).
so in order to get the rabbonim to agree to come, some people made a deal with elal that for one flight they would do these things, and then the rabbonim agreed to come.
I don't know that much about the rebbe, but R' Aryeh leib has many chumros that you wont even begin to understand. he is not asking you to adher to them. why are you telling him to change?

On the new planes they have screens on the back of each seat, and get this, if you don't want to watch the screen, you can turn it off. It's pretty amazing actually, you press a button and the screen just turns off. Pretty cool.

[accolade]

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

half dressed flight attendants

To be fair, flight attendants are well-dressed and always in uniform. Their uniforms are quite professional and modest (I don't recall if El Al attendants wear short sleeves or not).

[Melech]

Quote

We do not report on our costumers

I just thought that was funny.


And why are the rebbeim flying El Al?

[FYI]

trixies86, on May 9 2006, 01:00 PM, said:

and if they didn't buy up first class, say they only bought 2 seats and the rest of the seats have regular people, but they make sure there will be no movie showing, no ladies in first class and no female stewardesses. you would make a stink out of that too. lets say they decided to avoid all the issues and hire a private jet. you would make a stink out of that too.
this is the best way they can do it.

I don't know if this is the best they can do or not. However,t he point is true. No matter what the gedolim do there will be plenty of negative opinions from all the onlookers. Mostly because of the media. It is not the gerrer rebbr or r' al shteiman that made all of this info public but the annoying media. For all weknow they got their facts wrong as media is wont to do.

grend123, on May 9 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

The chillul hashem involved in this article outweighs any positive benefits the flight might have, even forgetting the gross financial irresponsibility. Better to fly to America with dark glasses on and a handler who isn't so makpid (obviously they realize most frum people don't do this) acting as a guide then to be mevazeh Torah in this way and waste so much money. Or better yet, don't come at all. We have enough holier than thou people here without importing them from overseas.

Perhaps but is it the gedolim that caused the chillul Hashem or the news reporter(s)?

grend123, on May 9 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

There's no issur to have your dinner served by a woman. And even if they wanted to avoid that, to buy up the seats davka to avoid seeing business women on a plane?

I don't think they mind who serves them dinner. They don't want to have to watch these women in their "uniforms" that are intentionally made to look provacotive (sp?).

[Melech]

FYI, on May 9 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

I don't think they mind who serves them dinner. They don't want to have to watch these women in their "uniforms" that are intentionally made to look provacotive (sp?).

Doesn't R. Falk derive the rules of what's proper dress from the uniforms of stewardesses?

[cynic]

FYI, on May 9 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

Perhaps but is it the gedolim that caused the chillul Hashem or the news reporter(s)?

Who is flying, the gedolim or the news reporters?

FYI, on May 9 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

I don't think they mind who serves them dinner. They don't want to have to watch these women in their "uniforms" that are intentionally made to look provacotive (sp?).

Maybe in the 1950's.

[NY-LON]

FYI, on May 9 2006, 08:28 PM, said:

Perhaps but is it the gedolim that caused the chillul Hashem or the news reporter(s)?

I don't think they mind who serves them dinner. They don't want to have to watch these women in their "uniforms" that are intentionally made to look provacotive (sp?).

1) it's only chillul hashem if there's a reporter to tell us about it?
2) if that's the case why not ask El Al to make sure the attendants were dressed correctly, rather than asking for no women to be present? And they don't want to see any Jewish woman passengers either.

Honestly, it reminds me of Muslim fundamentalists.

[Machmir]

NY-LON, on May 9 2006, 02:39 PM, said:

1) it's only chillul hashem if there's a reporter to tell us about it?
2) if that's the case why not ask El Al to make sure the attendants were dressed correctly, rather than asking for no women to be present? And they don't want to see any Jewish woman passengers either.

Honestly, it reminds me of Muslim fundamentalists.

I instantly thought of Saudi Arabia Airline, which I think until recently, only allowed male stewards.

[shaya_getzl]

Gerrer Rebbe is rich like Korach, so I'm pretty sure that no "public" funds of any sort will finance this ridiculous nonsense. This is all a totally Zionist, sell-out attitude and people that take advantage of these arrangements are being mechazek yad minim.

[sephardic-male]

NY-LON, on May 9 2006, 03:39 PM, said:

1) it's only chillul hashem if there's a reporter to tell us about it?
2) if that's the case why not ask El Al to make sure the attendants were dressed correctly, rather than asking for no women to be present? And they don't want to see any Jewish woman passengers either.

Honestly, it reminds me of Muslim fundamentalists.

they are the Jewish version of the Taliban. how are these rabbis earning money so they can have 3 meals a day, a roof over thier head, pay El AL to express thier hatred of women, etc who is giving them money. i feel sorry for any women that are married to these cave men.

[Royte Kup]

What i don't understand is, do they not trust themselves? i don't mean at all to be disrespectful i just don't understand. isn't it an "easy way out"? isn't it much better for them to have women around and be able to control their htoughts? these are real chashuv people... i really dont understand it