100 replies to this topic

[yaaqov]

B"H
A' d'Rosh Hodesh Ha'Asiri/Ner Shishi 5767

I have no doubt that this has come up before on this forum. I've been bumping into a lot of men who wear wedding bands, some of whom want to tell me about how distant their from "galuth" now that they're in Israel. (sigh) Sorry, dudes, but take off that ring (or goyshe, mafiososo clothing), and maybe I'll buy that.

http://www.torahlight.com/ring.html

She'elah: Is wearing a ring by a male considered to fall under the negative commandment of not wearing a womans garment?

Tshuvah: Regarding the issur of 'Lo Yilbash' (see Devarim 22:5), it is mutar according to many Poseqim for a Jewish man to do that which is commonly done by the non-Jewish men of that country or area; such behaviour, therefore, would not be considered to fall under the above category.

Nevertheless, the Rambam (Avoda Zara 12:9) states that this fact - that the goyim do so - simply saves the Jew in question from being flogged; the action itself remains reprehensible. I.e. - bediavad, he wouldn't be punished.

A similar thought is expressed by Rabenu Avigdor Cohen Sedeq (Katz) - one of the Ba'ale HaTosafoth - in answering a question concerning trimming the underarm and genital hair (of a male) in a locality where this is done by the non-Jews: "we should not relinquish the words of our Holy Rabbis because of the minhag of the uncircumcised ones" (even though it might not be assur, technically).

Thus I think it best not to wear a ring. It is not, and has never been, a Jewish custom. As for the desirability of an obvious indication that you are married - this does not warrant overruling the above. If necessary, simply say "I'm married!".

Shalom weKhol Tuv Dawith Hanokh Yishaq ben HaRav Hayim Refael

Shalom weNissahon
David Hanokh Yishaq Bar-Hayim

[aishel]

http://aishel.wordpr...-orthodox-jews/

[Savannah]

http://aishel.wordpr...-orthodox-jews/

Nice post.

I think the real problem is the idea of the double ring ceremony or the giving of the ring right after the ceremony. I bet if the wife gave the husband the ring when they went home after the wedding it would be much less of an issue.

Also, I think ideas of prohibiting things that goyim do come from a time when everything goyim did had a religious underpinning. And as you rightly pointed out, this is nothing religious, it's just a marketing tool (sort of like Mother's Day, which we've also discussed here).

I mean, if you were living in the 1100's it wouldn't be conceivable to you that religion wouldn't permeate every facet of goyish life.

[Doc]

Topic split:
http://www.hashkafah...showtopic=33974

[yaaqov]

Nice post.

I think the real problem is the idea of the double ring ceremony or the giving of the ring right after the ceremony. I bet if the wife gave the husband the ring when they went home after the wedding it would be much less of an issue.

Also, I think ideas of prohibiting things that goyim do come from a time when everything goyim did had a religious underpinning. And as you rightly pointed out, this is nothing religious, it's just a marketing tool (sort of like Mother's Day, which we've also discussed here).

I mean, if you were living in the 1100's it wouldn't be conceivable to you that religion wouldn't permeate every facet of goyish life.

We have two choices:

1) Except the "current reality" (read: alma d'shiqra) and compromise the Torah.

2) MAKE the Torah the reality.

[Savannah]

We have two choices:

1) Except the "current reality" (read: alma d'shiqra) and compromise the Torah.

2) MAKE the Torah the reality.

Er, that should be "accept." I had to read that three times before I could figure out what you were saying.

My point is that the current reality does not compromise the Torah. The same way that we can accept, for example, that there's chochma in the goyim, we can accept that there are thing that they do that aren't inherently wrong.

Make the Torah the reality? That's for when Moshiach comes or if you are Amish. I don't think Kiryas Joel is in the spirit of the Torah at all. It doesn't make for much ohr lagoyim.

[Aviva]

We have two choices:

1) Except the "current reality" (read: alma d'shiqra) and compromise the Torah.

2) MAKE the Torah the reality.

Even if we could MAKE the Torah a reality, how do you propose we MAKE people follow everything in it?

You can't. There's no way you can force someone (without violence) to do something. Aishel's right. It boils down to a personal preference. Goldfish is also right. It doesn't mean what it meant way back when. It's your pet peeve, and while it's understandable, it doesn't mean you should try to force everyone to do it your way.

[yaaqov]

[quote name='Aviva' post='741721' date='Dec 21 2006, 04:29 AM']Even if we could MAKE the Torah a reality, how do you propose we MAKE people follow everything in it?

You can't. There's no way you can force someone (without violence) to do something.[/quote]

And the problem with that would be....what?

Um,...I do believe that "lashes of rebellion" would be consider a form of violence, though I choose to call it corporal punishment.

[/quote]Aishel's right. It boils down to a personal preference. Goldfish is also right. It doesn't mean what it meant way back when. It's your pet peeve, and while it's understandable, it doesn't mean you should try to force everyone to do it your way.
[/quote]

Who's trying to force anyone?

I'm just saying if you're wearing goyshe clothing (and I, too, am currently guilty of this), or practicing a goyshe custom, that person has no business to get into my face about how "ge'ulati" and not "galuthi" he is.

That's all.

[investor relations]

A double ring ceremony is very problematic, especially if the Aidim arent aware of what is actually causing the Kiddushin.

[brianna]

I like the idea of a double ring ceremony. It's romantic.

[Aviva]

And the problem with that would be....what?

Um,...I do believe that "lashes of rebellion" would be consider a form of violence, though I choose to call it corporal punishment.

If I have to tell you what the problem would be with that, there are serious issues that need working out.

Who's trying to force anyone?

I'm just saying if you're wearing goyshe clothing (and I, too, am currently guilty of this), or practicing a goyshe custom, that person has no business to get into my face about how "ge'ulati" and not "galuthi" he is.

That's all.

It sounds like you are trying to force others to your standards/beliefs ("MAKE"). Also, if you wear "goyishe clothing" but are calling out others for wearing wedding bands, isn't that like that pot calling the kettle black?

[yaaqov]

If I have to tell you what the problem would be with that, there are serious issues that need working out.

I was being sarcastic. Obviously the Sanhedrin (read: hallacha) did not have a problem with your so-called "violence," why should I?

Hallacha is not determined by feelings. That would be something I would expect from "Torah sheb'al peh distorters" or even mamlachtim.

It sounds like you are trying to force others to your standards/beliefs ("MAKE"). Also, if you wear "goyishe clothing" but are calling out others for wearing wedding bands, isn't that like that pot calling the kettle black?

Not exactly. I'm just trying to acknowledge that I too, have things I need to work on, and that I'm not trying to yell down to others from my high horse.

Wedding bands are my pet peeve. I can't stand them, and am expressing that here, and have even provided the opinion of one rav to back this up.

I have yet to see anyone quote a rav who can support hallachically the issue of men wearing wedding bands. It may exist, but hasn't been posted here yet.

I have no doubt that others on this forum have their own pet peeves as well.

[yaaqov]

I think it's usually the wives who want this "obvious indication" and I think it may be because they're afraid their husbands won't simply say "I'm married"...

Probabaly. I don't see why a man should be embarrassed by telling a another man that he's married. And I believe that he is required to tell a prospective second wife that he's married, before persuing that relationship, unless I'm mistaken.

[yaaqov]

A double ring ceremony is very problematic, especially if the Aidim arent aware of what is actually causing the Kiddushin.

R' Avigdor Miller said that "romance" (Western Style) is an illusion. I'm not trying to be mean and burst your bubble. Just something to think about.

Personally, I think that Western style romance (read: from X-ians) is yet another way for women to use to manipulate their husbands.

Myth: Shalom Bayith means give your wife whatever she wants.

[Aviva]

I was being sarcastic. Obviously the Sanhedrin (read: hallacha) did not have a problem with your so-called "violence," why should I?

Hallacha is not determined by feelings. That would be something I would expect from "Torah sheb'al peh distorters" or even mamlachtim.

I know halachah isn't about feelings. If it were, we'd probably all be screwed up.

Not exactly. I'm just trying to acknowledge that I too, have things I need to work on, and that I'm not trying to yell down to others from my high horse.

Wedding bands are my pet peeve. I can't stand them, and am expressing that here, and have even provided the opinion of one rav to back this up.

I have yet to see anyone quote a rav who can support hallachically the issue of men wearing wedding bands. It may exist, but hasn't been posted here yet.

I have no doubt that others on this forum have their own pet peeves as well.

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

[p_almonius]

Nevertheless, the Rambam (Avoda Zara 12:9) states that this fact - that the goyim do so - simply saves the Jew in question from being flogged; the action itself remains reprehensible. I.e. - bediavad, he wouldn't be punished.

Has anyone else looked at the Rambam? There are two numbering systems, so there are two possible 12:9's, and here they are, they both deal with shaving. Clothes and jewelry are discussed further down in this perek, although I have not found "the action itself remains reprehensible" there. http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/1412.htm

השפם--מותר לגלחו בתער, והוא השיער שעל גבי השפה העליונה; וכן השיער המדולדל מן השפה התחתונה. ואף על פי שהוא מותר, לא נהגו ישראל להשחיתו, אלא לגלח קצתו, עד שלא יעכב אכילה ושתייה.

העברת השיער משאר הגוף, כגון בית השחי ובית הערווה--אינו אסור מן התורה, אלא מדברי סופרים; והמעבירו, מכין אותו מכת מרדות. במה דברים אמורים, במקום שאין מעבירין אותו אלא נשים--כדי שלא יתקן עצמו תיקון נשים; אבל במקום שמעבירין השיער האנשים--אם העביר, אין מכין אותו. ומותר להעביר שיער שאר אברים במספריים, בכל מקום.

[brianna]

R' Avigdor Miller said that "romance" (Western Style) is an illusion. I'm not trying to be mean and burst your bubble. Just something to think about.

Personally, I think that Western style romance (read: from X-ians) is yet another way for women to use to manipulate their husbands.

Actually I think traditional Western view of romance exploits women more than it does men. Your point?

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

I would sooner wear a wedding DRESS than a wedding band......

[brianna]

I would sooner wear a wedding DRESS than a wedding band......

Oooooh, the image! I nearly snorted hot cocoa onto my laptop...