[Melech]

Girls/women should be taught to lein with the proper trop and should learn the meanings of the cantillation marks. Here's my reasoning:

When we recite keriat shema, the poskim advise reciting it with the proper trop. Even if women aren't obligated in all 3 chapters, women at least say the first verse and surely that one verse is better recited with the trop, even for women.
With regard to "kadosh, kadosh, kadosh..." and "baruch kavod..." in the first berachah "...Yotzer Ha-me'orot", the poskim mention that it should be recited with the trop (the haphtara trop, not the torah trop since these are verses from nevi'im) if you are reciting it individually (some poskim eg. R. Moshe Shtrenbuch advise reciting it with the trop always so you'll be in the habit). Now, even if women aren't obligated to recite that berachah, if they do, it seems to me they would be obligated to say those 2 pesukim with the trop if they are not in a minyan.
Similarly, if they recite selichot individually then "Hashem Hashem K-e-l Rachum..." should be recited with a trop. I realize women aren't obligated to say selichot in the first place, but then again, neither are men.
Poskim even mention reciting birchat kohanim with a trop (again, eg. R. Moshe Shternbuch in a separate teshuvah) when we say it first thing in the morning following birchot ha-torah.
WIth regard to Megillat Esther, since they have the same obligation as men to hear it, women too should have a kosher megillah in case they miss a word. And if they are reciting the missed words from their own megillah, the presumably they should say those words with the megillah trop.

In short, the obligation of women to say certain verses with the trop would be the same as men's obligations. The reason isn't related to torah study. The fact that women don't have the same obligation to learn is a nonsequitor. For example, with the kedushah of yotzer, it's so those verses can be said at all in the absence of a minyan. And in the example of keriat shema, it's how it should be said, so if women are saying it, then say it right.

So given these examples where women should say certain verses with the trop, it would seem they should be taught the proper trop for purposes of davening.

Additionally, even for reasons of torah study it would seem they should learn the trop. The trop is necessary for proper understanding of the grammar and syntax of tanach verses and how words are joined or separated. Many would presumably concede that women can learn torah she-bichtav. The trop is part of torah she-bichtav. (OK, I admit that's debatable). Although when we learn in the beis medrash we like to shout out the gemara in a melodic sing-song, we forget that all tanach verses have a tune - the trop - and we perhaps should use the trop even when we're just learning torah she-bichtav, and not just during davening and leining.

I thought about this during davening since where I daven everyone recites keriat shema together with the trop. Should the girls just say keriat shema without a trop? Surely not. And if they are saying it with the trop, then they should be taught the trop properly, instead of just picking it up the street.

[Opus]

Let's try to be chachamim and see the nolad here.

[Melech]

Opus, on Apr 23 2004, 04:47 PM, said:

Let's try to be chachamim and see the nolad here.

cute

[cornie]

When I was in 8th grade, my Ivrit teacher (who is a pretty chashuv rav) taught us girls the Ta'amei Haneginah, not to sing it as trop but to know it for dikduk. We learned the ones that are "stop", "go", etc. and the ones I still remember now help me in understanding pesukim. It's very cool.

[Melech]

That's my point, cornie. The ta'amim are torah she-bechtav no less than the vowels, and are as essential as the vowels.

[cornie]

You're right. I think in the Bais Yaakovs they should teach this in Ivris class, as it's probably more important than knowing the 7 binyanim by heart backwards and forwards in your sleep.

[Melech]

I can only assume the trop isn't taught because 1. maybe people consider it torah she-be'al peh (which I emphatically do not for a number of reasons) 2. you can't teach it without the girls singing it, so a male teacher can't teach it. So you need a female teacher. But who is going to teach the female teachers? Would have to be their husbands in a sound-proofed room I guess. 3. Everyone's afraid of that darn slippery slope that's around every corner - if they all know the trop, maybe heaven forbid next they'll want to lein. Or touch a klaf. Or horror of horrors - correct the male leiner on shabbat when he makes an error leining.

(which raises a question, by the way - what do women do if they are the only one who notices a mistake in leining that is me'akev? must be frustrating)

[cornie]

I was thinking it's reason #3. It sounds too feminist and liberal to many since they're not used to it. It all depends how it's taught and with what hashkafah.

[Melech]

cornie - that's because traditionally women were illiterate. the aruch hashulchan doesn't even like answering "amen" to your pre-bat-mitzvah-aged daughter's berachah.
but having girls in school in the first place is "feminist". now that we've overcome that hurdle, give them a proper education.

[politico]

melech, on Apr 26 2004, 08:18 PM, said:

2. you can't teach it without the girls singing it, so a male teacher can't teach it. So you need a female teacher. But who is going to teach the female teachers? Would have to be their husbands in a sound-proofed room I guess.

i dont know about that - a girl with a good ear should be able to pick it up without having to be taught deliberately just from hearing it frequently enough. plus there are tapes and stuff out there so that you can learn without a person actually teaching you.

[BaronPhilip]

melech, on Apr 26 2004, 09:18 PM, said:

(which raises a question, by the way - what do women do if they are the only one who notices a mistake in leining that is me'akev? must be frustrating)

She should call it out loud, but only if she is absolutely certain that she will be heard from the ezras noshim. (which depends on the layout of the shul and where she is sitting) And if anyone has a problem with her doing so, they can go stuff it.

[Melech]

BaronPhilip, on Apr 27 2004, 09:09 AM, said:

melech, on Apr 26 2004, 09:18 PM, said:

(which raises a question, by the way - what do women do if they are the only one who notices a mistake in leining that is me'akev? must be frustrating)

She should call it out loud, but only if she is absolutely certain that she will be heard from the ezras noshim. (which depends on the layout of the shul and where she is sitting) And if anyone has a problem with her doing so, they can go stuff it.

that's nice in theory. but in my shul women don't even bench gomel. Apparently women never return from eretz yisrael and never recover from sickness. After a baby was born, I had to convene a minyan in my home.

[ShtarkOut]

In my Shul, a woman can bench Hagomel after davening when everyone is still in Shul. When a woman benches Hagomel someone makes an announcement that it's going to happen, but no one is really expecting a woman to find a mistake in the kria... A few times I have noticed a mistake in the kria and I just felt helpless.

[Melech]

...

[shim]

melech, on Apr 27 2004, 04:32 PM, said:

shul is wonderful for developing a sense of disempowerment for women.

oh, and I forgot one - apparently women are never aveilim either.

That is true. However it should be noted that the regular attendance of women in shul is a relatively recent thing. The reason why shul isn't woman friendly is not hostility toward women but that women really never went to shul and so it didn't have to be.

However, now that women do go to shul I think at the very least mechitzas should be constructed in such a way that women can hear and if possible see into the shul. I've heard so many complaints from all the women in my family.

[Melech]

shim, on Apr 27 2004, 04:36 PM, said:

That is true. However it should be noted that the regular attendance of women in shul is a relatively recent thing.

The fact that women are relative newcomers to shul only explains why they are excluded from formalized prayer rituals. It doesn't explain why women continue to be excluded from that which is permited to them (eg. my example of benching ha-gomel from their side of the mechitzah). It doesn't explain why women who are head of household (widows, single women, single moms, divorcees etc.) are allowed to pay shul dues but are excluded from sitting on shul boards - their money is good but their voice/opinion is not. It doesn't explain why girls back from seminary are prohibited from giving a dvar torah at seudat shlishit (as opposed to the holy bachurim back from yeshivah who are encouraged to wax eloquent). And it doesn't explain why there are no women's kiddush clubs. Now, you may think that's a weird example, but it goes to the heart of the matter. Anyone who walks out of davening to make kiddush with the boys can't really argue from a halachic standpoint that it's stricly the perview of men. Rather, it demonstrates that shul is essentially a male domain, where the boys can shmooze with their buddies, and where women are purposefully excluded, not for pure halachic reasons, but to keep shul an essentially male enclave or cave.

[pilar]

you are way too liberal for my thinking, melech.
who would teach these girls to layn trup?? men? kol isha isnt a problem when we are looking at something so important? brilliant.

[ShtarkOut]

pilar, on Apr 28 2004, 12:12 AM, said:

you are way too liberal for my thinking, melech.
who would teach these girls to layn trup??  men?  kol isha isnt a problem when we are looking at something so important?  brilliant.

For some reason I did not understand Melech's opinion to be the one you write. Have you read all the messages? In an earlier message Melech writes:

melech said:

you can't teach it without the girls singing it, so a male teacher can't teach it. So you need a female teacher. But who is going to teach the female teachers? Would have to be their husbands in a sound-proofed room I guess.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

melech, on Apr 28 2004, 04:43 AM, said:

It doesn't explain why girls back from seminary are prohibited from giving a dvar torah at seudat shlishit (as opposed to the holy bachurim back from yeshivah who are encouraged to wax eloquent).

Maybe we can have them give the Shabbos HaGodol drosho and posken shailos too.
Why not, they went to seminary. How about female mesader kedushin? Why not anyone can be mesader kedushin as long as they know the halachos.

And why not let women lein or make kiddush for everyone outright? It is not an issue of kol isha or at least I have never seen it assured for that reason.

[ShtarkOut]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Apr 28 2004, 04:42 AM, said:

Maybe we can have them give the Shabbos HaGodol drosho and posken shailos too.
Why not, they went to seminary. How about female mesader kedushin?

You are confusing things that are in some places accepted as being wrong (women giving a Dvar Torah, for example), and things that are undoubtedly prohibited by Halacha.

I'm sick of women having to be scared of doing things that might make men raise an eyebrow because they're seeing something they're not used to seeing, even though there is really nothing essentially wrong with it.

(BTW, this is a problem I have come across not only concerning women's issues)