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Zivug Announcment In Shamayim


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#1 5748

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:14 AM

Everyone knows (sorry I don't have a source) that 40 days before a baby's born it's announced, ben X to Bas Y. Firstly it's 40 days before he or she is born? or both?
And in the case of a person who dies young, their proper zivug can marry s/o else who is not their proper mate? Or do you think that boys and girls that die young were really supposed to marry eachother?

I'm interested to hear what you think and if anyone has any sources, that would be greatly appreciated.

#2 exfallsburg

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:29 AM

The source is Sotah 2a.
The gemara differentiates between a first and second marriage.
The commentaries discuss all your issues. (If a child dies before marrying then presumably no announcement is made)

#3 5748

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:32 AM

The source is Sotah 2a.
The gemara differentiates between a first and second marriage.
The commentaries discuss all your issues. (If a child dies before marrying then presumably no announcement is made)


Why presumably? What if it's suicide, a person has bechira to do it or not if he does, then that means he had no zivug in the first place?

#4 exfallsburg

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:52 AM

Yediyah and Bechira is easily seen as a contradiction but it doesn't have to be.
When you are in a restaurant and the desert cart comes by although you have the free will not eat that chocolate cake, your spouse may know that you will.
There are many other resolutions to this question but it isn't specific to the Zivug Announcement case.

#5 rebbishkind

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 04:23 AM

it says that every person has 7 zivuggim.
it depends on the persons behaviour on which one he gets.

it's not happening that all 7 die.....

iyh every1 finds his/her bashert

#6 rebbishkind

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 04:29 AM



A little Story....

before we got engaged or even met, my wife went out with a guy for 1 month. he liked her very much and already bought her jewelery etc. she found him ok, but wasn't really in love with him. he was planning to get engaged with him, but there was one fact that disturbed her. the fact was ME. she heard a lot about me, saw pics etc. and in the end we did go out. i kind of knew that she already went out with a other guy, but i thought... no risk, no fun! well we went out and she stopped seeing the other guy. after a while she found herself in a dilemma, she didn't want to hurt him or me, but actually preferred me. her family asked a rebbe. the rebbe said she should continue trying with me and eventually the decision will be very easy. before she went out with the other guy, they also asked the rebbe and he said she should go out, but when the rebbe got both names he saw that i was the better match... b"h we fell in love and we are now very happily married for more than a year...

this shows that you might even meet 2 zivugim (and choose the better or the worse :-) )

#7 Guest_melech_*

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:24 AM

....

#8 p_almonius

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:24 AM

it says that every person has 7 zivuggim.

Where does it say this?
I am DEMANDING that the Rabbonim start screaming about this.

#9 rebbishkind

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:26 AM

i don't know!

#10 p_almonius

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:27 AM

i don't know!

I'm in no hurry, I'll wait until you find out.
I am DEMANDING that the Rabbonim start screaming about this.

#11 Guest_melech_*

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:29 AM

....

#12 Savannah

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:47 AM

I don't believe in any of that stuff. There are just too many holes for it to be real.

#13 Elana

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 01:59 PM

The gemara differentiates between a first and second marriage.


what's the differentiation?

it says that every person has 7 zivuggim.
it depends on the persons behaviour on which one he gets.


i don't know about 7, but i also heard about a few depending on where the person is holding

A little Story....

this shows that you might even meet 2 zivugim (and choose the better or the worse :-) )


wow, ready to get engaged (with bought jewelry, no less!) and go out with someone else?
btw, there is still no proof the other guy was a zivug

#14 exfallsburg

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:26 PM

The gemara differentiates between a first and second marriage.

what's the differentiation?

i don't know about 7, but i also heard about a few depending on where the person is holding

Zivug Sheini depends on deeds done as part of Bechira (I presume thats what you heard)
BTW Tosafos says that the announcement is made when the boy is conceived.

#15 Elana

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 03:06 PM

Zivug Sheini depends on deeds done as part of Bechira (I presume thats what you heard)


zivug sheini means for the second marriage? cause my second quote was about the first marriage o rrather marriage in general - there are a few zivuggim depending on the person's level

#16 exfallsburg

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 03:08 PM

zivug sheini means for the second marriage? cause my second quote was about the first marriage o rrather marriage in general - there are a few zivuggim depending on the person's level

Guess not according to the gemara I quoted, unless you have another resolution.

#17 p_almonius

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 06:28 PM

what's the differentiation?
i don't know about 7, but i also heard about a few depending on where the person is holding
wow, ready to get engaged (with bought jewelry, no less!) and go out with someone else?
btw, there is still no proof the other guy was a zivug

There is no proof that anyone marries their zivug. I am sure that I don't need to remind anyone of Moed Katan 18b, where Shmuel says that it is possible for someone else to marry your zivug before you get there, and they ask, but what about the Bat Kol, and answer that it is possible that someone could overturn the Bat Kol's annoucement by prayer. But then maybe we need to ask why the answer in the Gemara isn't that there are seven possible zivugim.
I am DEMANDING that the Rabbonim start screaming about this.

#18 Anti-Philistine

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 07:23 PM

I'm amazed that there are people who actually literally believe this stuff...

#19 existwhere?

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:00 PM

we fell in love

Why weren't you uplifted?
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#20 exfallsburg

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 10:53 PM

I'm amazed that there are people who actually literally believe this stuff...

The Gemara isn't true?




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