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Tur Oc 315
Started by
Guest_Indigo_*
, Nov 20 2007 05:54 AM
20 replies to this topic
#2
Pinchas
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 06:03 AM
Why are people comfortable doing things like opening an awning or the cover on a stroller [if it was already open a tefach] but chas ve-shalom anyone should use an umbrella?
melech,
Oh. We learnt this! I have to look it up in my notes. I think it was that the stroller case it already existed and you are not creating the ohel...
#4
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 06:57 AM
Okay... found it in my notes. It's based on a gemara - Eiruvin 102a.
Rav explained to Rav Huna that if the partition (or cover) exists on is permitted to add to it. This is why the baby cartridge cover is permitted.
Rav explained to Rav Huna that if the partition (or cover) exists on is permitted to add to it. This is why the baby cartridge cover is permitted.
#5
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 07:11 AM
Oh, I posted that before I saw your reply.
I found something else interesting.
Nodah Bihuda (tinyana simon 30) held it's an isser Torah! (Both Ohel and Making a Kli). But the Chatam Sofer simon 72 disagrees and says it's not even an issur d'rabanan since it's built to open and close.
See Bi’ur Halacha in se’if 8 “tefach” which says the problem is the umbrella needs to be tied to be held open. (Our modern umbrellas don't work like that however.)
The Chazon Ish 52:6 disagrees with the Nodah Bihuda and says like the baby cartridge roof it's not Ohel but he says it IS making a Kli - because once it is open it can be transported and used anywhere. He also holds it's a uvda d'chol. He wrote that is was important for the leading rabbanim of the generation to erect barriers against it and that it's stricter than a personal chumra.
SS”K 24:15 explains why it's even forbidden if the umbrella was opened before shabbos!
I found something else interesting.
Nodah Bihuda (tinyana simon 30) held it's an isser Torah! (Both Ohel and Making a Kli). But the Chatam Sofer simon 72 disagrees and says it's not even an issur d'rabanan since it's built to open and close.
See Bi’ur Halacha in se’if 8 “tefach” which says the problem is the umbrella needs to be tied to be held open. (Our modern umbrellas don't work like that however.)
The Chazon Ish 52:6 disagrees with the Nodah Bihuda and says like the baby cartridge roof it's not Ohel but he says it IS making a Kli - because once it is open it can be transported and used anywhere. He also holds it's a uvda d'chol. He wrote that is was important for the leading rabbanim of the generation to erect barriers against it and that it's stricter than a personal chumra.
SS”K 24:15 explains why it's even forbidden if the umbrella was opened before shabbos!
#7
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 08:18 AM
The way umbrellas are opened is creating an ohel. The fact that you opened it before shabbos just makes it maris ayin. A stroller may not have the problem of maris ayin cuz it isnt always closed to make it be opened, or cuz there are plenty of strollers that arent built like that.That's all very interesting but for all the thumb waving and talmudic hair splitting, at the end of the day, "everybody" uses a cover on their stroller that was opened a tefach before shabbat and "nobody" uses an umbrella regardless. Which appears to me to be an application of the principle, "People do what they do and they don't what they don't".
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"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun".
Traveling the world in search of the truth.
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#8
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 08:22 AM
That's all very interesting but for all the thumb waving and talmudic hair splitting, at the end of the day, "everybody" uses a cover on their stroller that was opened a tefach before shabbat and "nobody" uses an umbrella regardless. Which appears to me to be an application of the principle, "People do what they do and they don't what they don't".
Did you see SS”K 24:15?
#10
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 09:34 AM
It's presumptuous of "rp" to claim he understands the reason behind the geder.
#11
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 09:35 AM
There's no reason.
The Node B'Yehuda came up with an inexplicable stringent chumra that no one else understood* with and few poskim agreed with, but for some reason it "caught on" and umbrella = sheigetz...
*I remember when learning this is Kollel (I was too smart for Yeshiva so I went straight there), that we couldn't possibly understand how the Node B'yehuda derived that there was an Issur D'oarisa here or why he was so stringent...
The Node B'Yehuda came up with an inexplicable stringent chumra that no one else understood* with and few poskim agreed with, but for some reason it "caught on" and umbrella = sheigetz...
*I remember when learning this is Kollel (I was too smart for Yeshiva so I went straight there), that we couldn't possibly understand how the Node B'yehuda derived that there was an Issur D'oarisa here or why he was so stringent...
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#12
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:39 AM
What about an umbrella that is completely open before shabbos? why is that assur?
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Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.
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#13
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:52 AM
What I said before. Ma'ris ayin. Nobody opens an umbrella unless they're gonna use it.What about an umbrella that is completely open before shabbos? why is that assur?
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"Eat. Spit. Be Happy." -Davids
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun".
Traveling the world in search of the truth.
Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you.
Author of the 1,234,567th post on Hashkafah.com!!
"Who is wise? he who can learn from every man. can be applied here, getting 'inspiration' from a one eyed whacko."
- soapmaker
" He who stands on toilet is high on pot" -Confucius
" When life gives you lemons make lemonade..... but if life gives you a handful of cr@p, dont try making anything out of it, trust me on that one. -Dahlai Lama
" I love Jews." -Somebody must have said it, somewhere
"A good friend will come and bail you out of jail................. but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "d@mn that was fun".
Traveling the world in search of the truth.
Make aliyah, or aliyah will make you.
Author of the 1,234,567th post on Hashkafah.com!!
#14
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Naive or Clueless?
Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:03 AM
Because we asked a rav who said it was okay.Why are people comfortable doing things like opening an awning or the cover on a stroller [if it was already open a tefach] but chas ve-shalom anyone should use an umbrella?
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#16
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Naive or Clueless?
Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:50 AM
Nope. At the time I didn't really even understand the question but a friend mentioned to me that there may be an issue so I asked about it.Did the Rav explain on what basis an umbrella is different than a stroller canopy?
Many people wish they could change their life, when all they really need to do is change their attitude towards life. - Sharon
#19
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Godol Hador
Posted 01 September 2009 - 11:49 PM
Someone needs to ask Ovadya Yosef if it is okay to carry an umbrella that has been opened before Shabbat in an area that has an eruv.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב
העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת
הלכה ג
אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה
העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת
הלכה ג
אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה
#20
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הבל יפצה פי
Posted 02 September 2009 - 04:39 AM
stroller covers are different only if the cover a tefach already, based on the principle of mosif al ohel aro'i. see the s"a/m"b on vilon s'fino for details.
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