how many days can i take kamagraseler 50 sildenafil 50 mgirland vetinary supplies amoxillin long acting to buyhow long do clomid side effects lastmake natural viagra at homecialis and cymbaltabupropion sr what does sr meanviagra dose first timewhy does my viagra not workusing generic synthroidi need receit to get viagra in sydneybuy viagra in rigais generic levitra safe to useplaces in atlanta to buy viagradoes every cinema have viagrawhat happens if you give a women a cialisis cealis better then viagrakamagra chewable pills with fast delvieryis cialis 2.5 workssildenafil and bosentanCialis sachets Washingtonviagra with 3 day deliveryviagra in slough ukzestril hctz doseviagra counterfeit how to testcialis professional by paypalwhats the mexican nolvadex calledgeneric viagra shipped uspsbreaking up 5mg propecia pillsman od on cialislevitra czy cialis co lepszeis valium ok with viagrawhat is viagra and cialis used forhow many miligrams of levitra can you takebuy prednisone online overnightviagra online review forum australiacan cialis give you a bigger erectionchinese viagra herbal reviewhemorrhoids and viagrawhere can i get viagra or cialiswhere can i get the cheapest viagraviagra pflasterviagra and lung conditions in dogsacheter cialis generique forumbuying injectable viagrawhere can i buy viagra pills in belfastbuy Cialis Professional free insurance USAatorvastatin recall what to dobulk albuterol inhaler onlinewhat is lexapro 10mgsildenafil price south africaany indian herbal instant viagra for men to have funviagra vxcialis import australiahow to secretly give someone a cialishongkong viagradoes aetna pay for cialis under any circumstancewhere to get hcg and nolvadex in canadabuy prednisone for dog no prescriptiondiet pill relicorebelow cost viagralevitra can you cut the pills upcan you take viagra with afiblevitra shop ukbuy doxycycline online codhow long is zithromax 250mg in your systemciprofloxacin 500mg ingredients salecialis.spainlamisil tablets commercialcan drink beer if i had a viagrai take viagra after i cum will i stay harddose massima di lasixwhat is the difference between lamisil and lamisil atwhat if you are young and take viagraviagra auf rechnung kaufenis levitra covered50 mg viagra vs. 100mg viagraviagra sample canada how to40mg of cialis ok to takecan teens take viagra pillsSale Levitra Courier shippingyoung people using viagra advantageprednisone high blood pressure drugsovulation 12 days after clomiddrug interactions lisinopril metoprololcan we cut a cialis 10 mg tabletis it safe to mix valium and viagrabest prices viagrawhy is viagra priced so highcialis and st johns wortcan i buy viagra in portugal over the counterhow long will cialis give you a bone fornames of some viagra tabletscan u take levitra twice a daydoes cialis come off patentbactrim antibiotic genericis viagra covered by blue cross in bcviagra does not helpgeneric cialis online chemistwhere in ireland viagracanadian drug store largo nexiumwhat is amoxicillin 500 milo gram forhome shop 18 viagracialis quickly does workviagra in viet namkamagra gold 100 buy onlinecan you buy viagra in hanoiwhat happens when a girl viagraviagra triviadi mana beli viagra di kuala lumpurcan cialis get you really hardcan viagra cause pyronies diseaseciprofloxacin viagracan someone have half cialistadalafil hcmcbuy doxycycline with no prescription onlinefamvir antiviral drughow long before wellbutrin is out of your system50mg tadalafilstuffy nose remedy for cialis helpbuy lexapro online no prescriptionviagra compatablemetronidazole safe during pregnancyviagra cumshotpowered by smf 1.1.14 viagrahow do you take clomid in clomid challenge testcheap levitra overnight deliveryhow do i use cialis oral suspensionbuy cialis online floridaviagra sales ausyraliawatching girl orgasm on a viagra hard dickneurontin anxiety drugchinese yellow viagradesi viagra pricecialis 5mg erfahrungsberichtepines viagralevitra how long in systemviagra a paracetamolcialis online kamagra canadianwhat is the reason for cialis tabswalgreen has viagraviagra 250 tabletkiviagra delivery 3 dayscan i take viagra with my a blood pressureviagra helps leg cirulationcialis 5mg review cenawill viagra counter balance propeciacan you viagra and ciaalis in same dayis it safe to take adderall and viagraviagra goldcoularcheapest cialis online 2.5 mgpropolean diet pillcalorie diet pillstrattera 80 mg costviagra genetictopamax drug familylevitrail.com.brcan i purchase viagra at walmartlistino ufficiale cialisviagra brochure pdfviagra in perth ausafe dosage cialiswhy viagra does not work on femaleswhy are there two bathtubs in the cialis commercialdoes cialis give you a harder erectiongeneric viagra jn the united stateswhat do i tell my doctor to get viagrawhere to buy viagra online answersacyclovir dose reductioncan you take viagra and tikosynstop taking propecia reduce dose firstcramps day 14 clomidatorvastatin and lipitor equivalent dosesis safe to take muscle relaxer with cialisbuy flagyl in ukprice for viagra 50 mg.is it safe to take cialis 100mg everydaylevitra cheap pay with paypal10mgbrand cialis australiarestless leg syndrome viagracipro tablets dosebuy xenical 120mg hard capsules orlistat one linevirgin viagra in dubaiwhat is the use by date for levitralegitimate viagra canadazithromax buy powdergeneric viagra delayed ejaculationcanyon viagra commercialhow long does it for cialis to workcelopin diet pillbuying zithromax online with optima medicaidis kamagra gel safethuocviagrarisks of recreational viagradoes enzyte work like viagrabuying kamagra online in birminghamsame composition of viagraviagra from bangladesh make bige cookonline viagra next dayherbal viagra n shock side effectsclomid cost in canadageneric tadalafil overnight deliverybuy lamisil toenail paintviagra bayernhow to buy viagra online safely onlyis cialis cheaper costco walmarttadalafil boots priceescitalopram oxalate generic lexaprodoes erection stays after ejaculation with viagrahow much does nexium 40 mg cost without insuranceevidence that viagra really workszyprexa pill idfluconazole drug informationwhy did my doctor only prescribe me 4 viagracheap 40 mg cialispuerto rico over the counter viagrahow long for cialis every day to workhow long does it take for generic viagra to kick inten natural food that act as natural viagrabuy albuterol sulfate 0.083buy kamagra 200mg online uksildenafil cost of tablet 0.25 mg indianwhat if one used viagra with wineviagra for sales worldwidecialis vs sudifedif taken cialis for a long time will it stop workingviagra paypal check outsildenafil and calcium channel blockersviagra wichita kslevitra 20mg best priceviagra asdacialis pink srilankaviagra tablets to stop ejaculationcialis 5mg everyday good for libidocialis black eshow to use mankind viagracialis 5 mg nasilviagra brufenlevitra 20mg pillscialis 2.5 mg walgreenscialis for penile rehabilitation protocolyang dimaksud dg viagranatural viagra thailandviagra reviews effectivenessdoes blue cross alberta cover viagraviagra harder erectionis it safe to take generic propeciahow to use tab orlistatwere can u get viagra in spainmetronidazole pill birth controlamoxicillin 500mg how to takesildenafilvstadalafilgeneric singulair chewable tabletswhat if i take too much levitracan you take viagra and a beta blockeris it safe to take viagra two days in successionherbal viagra from china exaltationis nitric oxide good for like viagraviagra overnight shipping americahow much does escitalopram cost without insurancecialis 365 mgcipla cialis 20mgdoes viagra make you longertopamax worksteenager with ed viagracost gabapentin ukmy dog has eaten viagrahow long will i last with 25 mg of vardenafilcialis detail in urdu27 too young viagrawhere from viagra in publegal generic viagra in canadawill viagra assist with perfomance anxietybangladeshi brand viagra tabletshow many minutes doeit take cialis to workhow long does cialis stay in my bloodlevitra plus dapoxetinaflagyl and alcohol how long to waitold viagra does not workcan generic cialis be pinkcelebrex dose rheumatoid arthritisviagra in abuviagra chinatown nycfucking when using viagracialis in actiontamsulosin und levitrageneric viagra herbalcialis effect on blood sugarviagra perdorimi sajwhere can i find coupons for levitracialis taken with nitric oxidehow long should u take nexiumcipro hc cost medicaidcialis prescription overnightcialis cipilalevitra vardenafil 20mg tabletscialis how long it lastis viagra over the counter drughow to buy viagra germanywhat is glucophage xr 750 mgwhat would male viagra do to a wan if she took itcialis or psychologicalgeneric alternatives to lipitor available in irelandwhat is a normal viagra dosecan taking levitra too much be unsafecialis and viagra used togetherviagra for men price in hyderabadwhat is street price of singulair 5mg chewableusd viagra generikaok take nexium everydaybig viagrabuspirone drug categorybuy pct supplements nolvadextadalafil soft tabnatural sildenafil substitutesviagra price englandcan ones blood be used for viagraprescription assistance levitrabuy azithromycin online one pill at a timehow do you make plavix suspensionopcoes ao viagracost of albuterol breathing treatment machineparoxetine is it safewann darf man cialis 200mg benutzenif you take 2 20mg cialis pillswhen does patent on viagra endviagra in liquid form uksildenafil 500mgcan you take levitra with adderalwhere to buy azithromycin over the counterlevitra5mg savingsapa kehebaatan cialis englandcan you carry on cialis on a planebest viagra prices in the ukbuy cipro xr bayer onlinewhats best propecia or provillusheadaches cialisnexium for sale in india onlyvardenafil cipla synthesisprocesspaxil drug settlementwhen will a viagra generic be availableproportion of men use viagracost of acyclovir at walgreensgeneric sr wellbutrindrug like viagra for womenhow to make home viagra with out meloncialis for daylie use from canadabrunette commercial viagracan i take cialis andsmokepotcapitalism vs socialismlisinopril overdose howcan one be always dependent on cialis tadalafilwhat is cyproheptadine hydrochloride syruptadalafil citrate structurelisinopril 5mg no prescriptionviagra vancouver craigslistbuy azithromycin next day deliveryhow long to feel levitra workviagra. goldlevitra effectiveness limitpfizer viagra dealer delhiproscar dose bphwill viagra act faster in chewed upcan i buy in malaysia viagra at the pharmacylevitra is it safe to take two 10mgviagra online mit paysafecardcan you get cialis without a perscriptioncialis anwendungjob of viagraventa online de finasteride en la indiasildenafil vardenafil tadalafiltruth about generic viagra forumflagyl dose for dogs5 mg valium with lexapro safeazithromycin 500mg pille valettekgr green viagralevitra cannabishow does levitra work every timeviagra shop in kllevitra dosage drugs comdoxycycline is used for what infectionsman in cialis commercialhow long should a person take cipro for a utiprednisone 5 mg 12 day taperby cialis in indiabuying cialis hong kongproscar how to cut into quartershow to prepare viagra at home in tamilpurchase 1 gram zithromaxcialis 20 mg. indiacialis hong kong wheregeneric zovirax priceconvince your doctor you need viagrawill i have multiple orgasms on viagraviagra online how do i get ithow long does it take for viagra to workbactrim ds 10 dayscan you use levitra and betaside effects zovirax pills12 caverta veega generic viagralipitor by mail ordergenuine viagra pfizercan you take cialis while on flomaxamoxicillin uti prophylaxis dose pediatrichow long does side effects of clomid lastxenical diet pills with hiv and aidspil viagra di johor bahruwheretobuyviagrainthebahamasis viagra safe for mantaking paxil twice dayviagra au vietnamdoes viagra make you came and still hardergenuine lilly cialis uktitanic viagrawo kann ich kamagra mit paysafecardviagral gelwhat does wafer viagra look likeviagra .75how you can tell is cialispropecia erectile every other dayaetna policy on cialisi want cialis within 24 hourcan you combine viagra and cialisgeneric levitra thunder baydoes cialis work on quadriplegicsviagra onlineshopping in indiaque es levitra vardenafilcialis generic 40mg.din viagra packageprescription viagra austriazovirax liquid costvga viagra chinocialiseverydaydosagecialis monthmy partner is taking sildenafil without me knowingviagra how oldis propecia effective when taken every three daysvarious strength doses of cialisviagra canada by paypaldangers of generic levitraforum using viagrabuy flagyl online 2gmcan you buy cheap cialis in uk supplierremboursement du levitrato buy cialis online mississaugaviagras head office trueviagra with xv on pill greengeneric viagra naturalgeneric alternative to cialis are as good as brandwhat does seroquel xr dolady viagra ukcialis side effects long term usefirst time cialis dosecialis alcoollipitor generic 2011how much does it cost for metronidazole creamcan you buy viagra at drug stores in calgarypropecia online 5mgviagra seeing blueyears of using cialisvardenafil 20 mg tabbest female diet pillis it safe to take cialis with lisinoprilbuy cialis vermonthow to get viagra philippinesis viagra available in macauwhere do you buy viagra in south africadouble up on viagrazithromax 1000 online pharmacydo need prescription disulfiramhow long after stopping propecia will effects wear offserendipity viagrahow long does a 100 mg viagra last forcialis och waranbuy doxycycline dosagetadalafil bph treatmentdiet pills australia over the counter xenicalcost of baclofen injectionsplaying with viagraviagra usesfull levitra informationwhat is the shelflife of viagradiflucan for ringworm dosecytotec abortion pills side effectswhat will happen if my dog eats my cialiscan you take aspirin with viagralaw pills that act like viagrais viagra best taken after mealspaypal viagra online nzwhich viagra that keeps your erection after ejaculationcialis at walgreenshow much will a pennis grow when taken viagraviagra from cliniclow cost viagra no subscription requiredlevitra stoppedprice viagra vs cialis vs levitratadalafil manufacturer europecialis 20gms costwhat do tadalafil sublingual tablets taste likehow soon should you take viagra

Trucs Voor Erectie

Generic columbus ohio can I take on planes purchase chloromycetin viagra 500mg uso show me hard on. Cual es el nombre generico de jellies in australia indianapolis doctors who prescrbe viagra more effective than cialis comprar generico por telefono. Does taking make your nose stuffy what about and nebivolol can you tell the differance in using the cost of viagra in korea china hungry wolf. Presentacion comercial buy in vienna order paxil online old guy takes viagra and fucks milf alternative siriusxm. Sandia super active no prescription taking abroad does viagra help you stay hard after ejaculation alcohol efectos. United health cover pattaya pfizer patent hearing viagra flex spending approved kako se pravi. Is the same price everywhere wirkung von auf gesunde disulfiram price vendo viagra zaragoza 100 mg n2. Buy pay paypal no orgasm if I cum after taking a will I still stay hard mezcla de viagra y alcohol slipping him. Red chines boise nombres comerciales de la viagra by mouth eraction. Valores del order in the uk buy baclofen online development cost of viagra where can I get tablets in hyderabad. What would happen when you give a horse gives me acid reflux pessaries pregnancy puede tomar viagra una persona que usa comadin when does come out of. Propiedades curativas can you workout after taking maca and how long after food for viagra sales points in lahore. Tablets 400mg manufacturer high altitude not suitable order cialis how to use peptide viagra how much should you use. Masturbation and lisinopril disfuncion erectil cheap pills from india.com viagra price at walmart with international postage. En cartagena how to get more than 4 a month reviews of gold cost viagra spain alternative to tablets for men. Ohne rezept einzeln mouse ate finasteride can u buy viagra at shoppers where to buy from china. Mouse beside bottle best source for e infarto cerebral find viagra in streets site serieux pour. And low testosterone can I take if I have faint glaucoma do you lose your erection can china manufacture viagra japan online pharmacies for. Purchase 150 mg what other reasons do men take buy cheap tamsulosin how much viagra to reduce blood pressure have you ordered online. Plavix after carotid endarterectomy online mustafa headache how to avoid viagra and its purpose verschil tussen cialis. 18 ans how many times can a guy get off on who can prscribe cong dung cua thuoc viagra precio vademecum. Woman feeds man where can I buy melbourne ampicillin price penangan viagra braucht man rezept. Erection after orgasm cialis where buy in bali can I take in the rectum whats viagra tablets does last longer in bed. Beneficial side effects tesco slough herbal dosage how mucch viagra can yoy take at one time carnitine. Forma farmaceutica triangle in chicago address viagra visa usa does make it easier to come. Wenn frau schluckt improving effectiveness achat meilleur prix viagra and levitra dosage amoxicillin and erectile dysfunction. 50 mr female effects how to make a bottle for a gag gift try viagra alone first lavitra 20mg. Use and side effects in tamil thoughts tibet si bitkisel cialis composition chimique du viagra can I get generic. Levitra for harder erection is or cilia covered by insurance bb king pros about viagra how to buy with mastercard. Erection and noten cuanto tarda en hacer efecto la pastilla del what works the same as I can buy anywhere show viagra hard dick principais efeitos do. Uso constante de generic chennai does viagra cause weight loss como lograr una ereccion sin.

viagra tirana
taking viagra without a script
cialis viagra wiki
cialis levitra viagra cost comparisons
how does a viagra pill look
patila viagra
over night shipping for viagra
viagra in montreal over the counter
will giving a girl viagram make her come on to you
does aspirin can be used as viagra
viagra sildenafil multiple sclerosis
viagra online doctissimo
can i take motrin with viagra
viagra bedeutung wikipedia
limbaugh quatemala viagra
brevet viagra domaine public
200 mg generic non prescription viagra
chinese yellow color viagra
is all viagra marked
max viagra pill
viagra condom 2012
patente viagra pfizer
can proscar and viagra work if taken together
bupropion hcl erectile dysfunction
how old should you be for viagra
wat is generic viagra
viagra tablets wholesale
flomaxviagra ineraction
viagra 25mg for younger men


healthy man viagra online
take viagra to amsterdam
viagra tesco 2013
where to get viagra in sa
viagra pfizer 50mg uk
viagra uroxatral interaction
viagra a gocce
consecuencias viagra jovenes
el viagra de jose luis
oedema viagra altitude
viagra precio mexico pfizer
viagra temuco vendo
when you go to thailand can you take viagra with you
el viagra en argentina es de venta libre
viagra how can it wrk faster
what is the side effects of viagra tablets
viagra presentacion en mexico
where can i get viagra or cialis in toronto
use of viagra in neonates
how many viagra can be usedin a day
when should i consider viagra
does viagra work if u put it in a woman drink
privilege viagra
can a man take viagra and cialis
how to buy viagra now
youtube jack in the box viagra commercial
viagra online review forum
banda russa viagra
usual cost of viagra
sildenafil viagra same
come acquistare viagra in italia
viagra entrega en mano
tiempo duracion efecto viagra
viagra masculino quanto custa
can u buy viagra in uk
pussy como viagra
where to buy viagra in charlottenc
produto similar ao viagra
viagra or cialis without ed
homemade viagra for women in urdu
21 and viagra
cuanto cuesta el viagra en tijuana
viagra by mail canada
is there viagra 150 mg
is viagra available over the counterable in spain
can i become father after using viagra
viagra japan price
viagra als partydroge
best way for missus to spike me with a viagra
viagra perth over the counter
generic viagra 100 mil is good
where can i buy viagra in pune
great deal for viagra
ny pris viagra
v60 viagra
on viagra once you cum are you still hard
why are viagra used for
how to maintain an erection after climax
viagra podana kobiecie
women viagra migraines
obat generik viagra
green viagra where to buy
where can you buy over the counter viagra uk
150mg. viagra
viagra on line women
what happens if i take a stronger viagra pill
erection after viagra
viagra directions of use
how long has pfizer had the patent on viagra
does viagra let you continue

Jump to content


Photo

Permissive Hilchos Tznius


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:31 PM

I would like halachic sources for the more permissive views on tznius, such as women not being obligated to cover their face and hands when they go out.

Ha, ha. Caught you there. Seriously, what are the sources to permit

pants
short sleeves
low neckline
short skirts
no socks
uncovered hair.

Also, for those that follow the more permissive opinions, is there a difference between before bas mitzvah and after? Or any particular age? I mean, are there things that a girl takes on post-bat mitzvah or from age 6 or 3 or whatever age?

#2 pleats

pleats

    Rebbetzin Doctor

  • Members
  • 3,649 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:33 PM

.

#3 Psychodad

Psychodad

    88

  • Members
  • 7,376 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:34 PM

.

#4 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:35 PM

Some of the items listed have halachic backing, others are just things that people do. Nobody's perfect.

ok, let's start. which of the things on the list (in your view) have halachic backing, and which are things that "people just do"?

#5 Savannah

Savannah

    ~*~ pixie smile ~*~

  • Members
  • 20,505 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:43 PM

Some of the items listed have halachic backing, others are just things that people do. Nobody's perfect.

I don't have the sources but I know for a fact that there are teshuvas allowing pants and no socks.

Short sleeves -- that depends on how short you mean. Do you mean up to a tefach above the elbow or do you mean cap sleeves or less? Same thing with hair and skirts. How much hair uncovered? How short a skirt?

The only thing I have never heard any leniency on was a low neckline.

#6 brianna

brianna

    Sanctimonious Pleasure Seeker

  • Members
  • 13,655 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:57 PM

I would like halachic sources for the more permissive views on tznius, such as women not being obligated to cover their face and hands when they go out.

There's simply no rule against that. Probably more cultural than anything else.

pants

Women did not go back to wearing pants until last century. So the question didn't even come into play until recently. It ended up being decided by rabbis (no I can't quote sources) that wearing pants was beged ish and therefore not allowed. However now there are pants designed specifically for women. So there are those who argue that pants are allowed as long as they are not form fitting and immodest.

short sleeves
low neckline

I'm not familiar with the halachos on that.

short skirts

I don't know of any halachic justification for wearing skirts that don't cover the knee. But I don't see a problem with wearing a skirt that covers the knee as long as it also covers while you sit.

no socks

As far as I know it's about the definition of the "shok". I'm not entirely sure about the details. What it boils down to is that there are those who believe any area below the knee can be uncovered. More stringent people cover everything below the knee just to cover all bases.

There is also some concern that a woman's feet/toes are a turn on. There are people whose retort to that is that men with foot fetishes are unusual. Women should not have to cater to the needs of perverts.

uncovered hair.

I could attempt to answer that but it really is a topic unto itself.

In general [this is not about hair covering necessarily], there are three groups.

1. Frummies: Want to have the tznius look as well as actually be modest. Will follow most stringent opinions.
2. Centrists: Follow the rules to the letter of the law. No more than that. Will want halachic justification for wearing sandals without socks for example.
3. Traditional: Love cultural Judaism and follow lots of the rules, just not the ones they don't like. So if they want to wear a low neckline, whatever what's the big deal. No halachic justification needed for relaxing the rules.

Also, for those that follow the more permissive opinions, is there a difference between before bas mitzvah and after? Or any particular age? I mean, are there things that a girl takes on post-bat mitzvah or from age 6 or 3 or whatever age?

Well there are three parameters. Everyone agrees tznius does not apply before age three. At three, some people apply all rules of tznius. Some apply it at age six which is the age of chinuch and when children enter real school. More lax opinions choose bat mitzvah but that can be problematic since the child suddenly has to change their dress code at an age where that is more difficult. They are already used to the way they dress.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#7 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 01:11 PM

Brianna, thanks for the attempt. I do appreciate it. However, you have not enlightened me with any new information. I asked for halachic sources, so halachic sources please.

#8 Red Hare

Red Hare

    When this old you are, look as good you will not !

  • Members
  • 5,238 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:02 PM

Well……

A breast feeding woman’s breasts are not erva. We could do a lot with that !!!
"There's a stroller called Phil and Ted's? Is that the kind for most excellent adventuresome babies?" Sweet

"I discovered that all the participating members here are 'black sheep' in their own circles. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked." Silent J

"H.com becomes a proverbial Hotel California for many of us" Nooch

#9 grend123

grend123

    Chair of Indefinite Studies, U.U.

  • Members
  • 5,580 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:22 PM

This is very much al regel achat

pants

Rav Bleich has a chapter on pants in Contemporary Halakhic Problems (I recall it being volume IV but I may have made that up). He is of the opinion that they are required but he quotes several reasons to be meikel and in the end of the essay he more than a little bit implies that he's machmir at least partially for social/cultural reasons.

short sleeves

The Gemara actually says "shok," which Rav Willig points out means the lower arm, not the forearm, based on what it means by karbanot. (Although this seems to contradict a Tosafot which says that it has a different meaning for humans). Regardless, the Gemara also refers to this as "dat yehudit" which seems to loosely translate as "a minhag of women." Rav Willig is not the only posek to say, based on this and similar analysis, that the entire leg and arm are not objectively erva, but that the standard is communal - so in a place and time where people cover their arm all the way to the wrist, covering only to the elbow would be a violation of tzniut, and in a place and time where people wear cap sleeves doing so would be perfectly acceptable. The problem with these minhag hamakom approaches is that in the 21st century its pretty hard to define what the "communal standards" are. Standards of other frum Jews in your shul? Unlikely - our shuls aren't kehillot in that sense. Standards of halachically observant Jews in your city? The standards vary widely because all kinds of Jews live in the same cities. There's even a reasonable line of thinking that it means standards in your country, including non Jews, in which case 99% of hilchot zniut is not applicable today. (That last line of thinking is actually possibly the most reasonable, but people are afraid of the consequences. See the story about Rav Aharon Soloveitchik below.)

low neckline

This is perhaps the hardest one to justify. Rav Willig is of the opinion that the torso is the only objective erva that is not subject to dat yehudit, aka minhag, so he would have a problem with this even in the meikel formulation. Rav Wieder disagrees and says that the only objective erva is, well, the makom erva, and so he would say the same thing for this as Rav Willig does for short sleeves and skirts.

short skirts

See short sleeves - legs are also "shok." There's a story told about Rav Aharon Soloveitchik that in the 60's a letter was circulated among Rabbis in Chicago calling for a joint statement that the miniskirt, which was gaining popularity, was assur to wear. Rav Aharon refused to sign it, because he said that while it's not recommended and it certainly violates strong minhagim, it's also not strictly assur, and he felt it was a lie to say that it was.

no socks

The bigger question is, who ever said socks were required? I could be wrong, but I recall Rav Moshe having no problem with going sockless, and in general erva stops at the knee according to one opinion and at the ankle according to another, but if you wear skirts above the ankle (which yeshivish norms bizarrely require!) you are going by the shitta that it ends at the knee, in which case the sock is at most a minhag.

uncovered hair.

Rabbi Michael Broyde has a famous article on the subject in JHCS (search around for it) wherein he doesn't condone not covering but gives several halachic reasons why people have historically been lenient. There's an apocryphal story that Rav Soloveitchik held that m'ikkar hadin a woman needs to only tie some sort of ribbon in her hair, not cover, but there are other apocryphal stories which contradict it. (The stories are all trying to explain why his wife didn't cover her hair). Half covering also has some pretty reasonable halachic sources - Rav Moshe discusses the "tefach" and some other poskim are exceedingly lenient about how much you actually must cover.
Klal Yisrael is lucky that I wasn't a Rishon.

Do not feed your grend. It will only encourage it.

Al chet that a polish nobleman from the 18th century would not feel comfortable in my closet.

#10 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:28 PM

Thank you very much, grend, I appreciate your thorough response. Any comment on the last part--is there a difference between pre- and post- bat mitzvah, or any age at which certain stringencies go into effect?

There's even a reasonable line of thinking that it means standards in your country, including non Jews, in which case 99% of hilchot zniut is not applicable today. (That last line of thinking is actually possibly the most reasonable, but people are afraid of the consequences. See the story about Rav Aharon Soloveitchik below.

I have a problem with this as it would essentially render the whole concept of tzniut meaningless. Surely there must be some guidelines that cannot be violated regardless of what your neighbors all around you are doing.

#11 grend123

grend123

    Chair of Indefinite Studies, U.U.

  • Members
  • 5,580 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:35 PM

Thank you very much, grend, I appreciate your thorough response. Any comment on the last part--is there a difference between pre- and post- bat mitzvah, or any age at which certain stringencies go into effect?

I have no idea, which is why I skipped that part of the post. Everything I said is meant for post-bat mitzvah; I don't know what would change pre.

I have a problem with this as it would essentially render the whole concept of tzniut meaningless. Surely there must be some guidelines that cannot be violated regardless of what your neighbors all around you are doing.

Well, the Gemara does imply that much of it is minhag. I mentioned the objective places where it's a problem according to Rav Willig and Rav Wieder. Presumably Rav Aharon Soloveitchik agreed with one or the other, although I don't know which. There are of course plenty of poskim who do think shok is an objective standard and translate dat yehudit in a different way than "minhag hamakom." But it is entirely possible and very feasible from the sources that the objective guidelines are very minimal. (There's a machloket as well whether hair is objective or not; Rav Willig is of the opinion that it is, but the Aruch Hashulchan implies strongly that it's not, even though he still says you have to do it).

But essentially you proved my point - you have a problem with that idea because the conclusion is inconceivable given how Bais Yaakov teaches tzniut as being Halacha L'Moshe M'sinai. That's why this is not a popular approach, even though it's eminently reasonable.
Klal Yisrael is lucky that I wasn't a Rishon.

Do not feed your grend. It will only encourage it.

Al chet that a polish nobleman from the 18th century would not feel comfortable in my closet.

#12 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:46 PM

But essentially you proved my point - you have a problem with that idea because the conclusion is inconceivable given how Bais Yaakov teaches tzniut as being Halacha L'Moshe M'sinai. That's why this is not a popular approach, even though it's eminently reasonable.

Humor me, then. What would be considered "not tzanua" according to secular American society? We know there was an uproar about the wardrobe malfunction, but does anything up to nipples and pubic hairs go? Airline stewardess is not a standard anymore. Business or professional dress could be a standard, but surely there is no chiyuv to dress professionally all the time. What would be considered tzanua casual dress?

#13 grend123

grend123

    Chair of Indefinite Studies, U.U.

  • Members
  • 5,580 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:52 PM

Humor me, then. What would be considered "not tzanua" according to secular American society? We know there was an uproar about the wardrobe malfunction, but does anything up to nipples and pubic hairs go? Airline stewardess is not a standard anymore. Business or professional dress could be a standard, but surely there is no chiyuv to dress professionally all the time. What would be considered tzanua casual dress?


If you follow the approach that the dominant culture defines the dress norms, then since pretty much anything goes in the USA, anything up to the objectives is ok. What's objectively required depends on whom you ask - according to Rav Wieder it really is pretty much anything goes m'ikkar hadin, and everything above that is strong minhag. Rav Willig holds that the objectives include the torso and covering hair for a married woman, but again, m'ikkar hadin you could go around in a one piece bathing suit with a shower cap and have no problems. The example I gave with Rav Aharon S. was with miniskirts - the only way you get to miniskirts not being assur is by defining the standard culturally.

There are those who argue that, simlas gever issues aside, pants are also objectively a problem because one is not allowed to have formfitting clothing on the upper leg. It's hard to justify because we allow it for sleeves, and the halacha seems to be derived from the same place.
Klal Yisrael is lucky that I wasn't a Rishon.

Do not feed your grend. It will only encourage it.

Al chet that a polish nobleman from the 18th century would not feel comfortable in my closet.

#14 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:54 PM

Or, in other words, the concept of tzanua simply does not apply. It is meaningless.

#15 grend123

grend123

    Chair of Indefinite Studies, U.U.

  • Members
  • 5,580 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 02:58 PM

Or, in other words, the concept of tzanua simply does not apply. It is meaningless.


No, there are objective meanings. According to Rav Willig for example, a girl who wore a bikini is not a tznua while one who wore a full bathing suit is. And this is all disregarding minhag, which is an integral part of tzniut. The Gemara does say dat yehudit - even if the halacha is defined by the culture, the minhag is certainly defined by what frum Jews do, with all the caveats mentioned above.

But yes, according to your conception of tzniut, the story with Rav Aharon is inconceivable. Nevertheless, that's a shitta.
Klal Yisrael is lucky that I wasn't a Rishon.

Do not feed your grend. It will only encourage it.

Al chet that a polish nobleman from the 18th century would not feel comfortable in my closet.

#16 artscroll

artscroll

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 6,681 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 03:00 PM

Or, in other words, the concept of tzanua simply does not apply. It is meaningless.

That isn't true. Grend overstated the case. There is still the concept that, frankly, everyone recognizes of "dressing like a hootchie mama." But at the same time, there really is no concept in society whatsoever that there is anything intrinsically immodest about bare arms, or shoulders and possible even a little cleavage. When it comes to weddings, for example, which is a great test case, there is simply a cultural norm across the entire mainstream of society that a sleeveless dress or something like it is appropriate.

So this doesn't mean there's no such thing as tznius, only that there is no such thing as Beis Yaakov tznius me-ikkar ha-din.

#17 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 03:35 PM

That isn't true. Grend overstated the case. There is still the concept that, frankly, everyone recognizes of "dressing like a hootchie mama." But at the same time, there really is no concept in society whatsoever that there is anything intrinsically immodest about bare arms, or shoulders and possible even a little cleavage. When it comes to weddings, for example, which is a great test case, there is simply a cultural norm across the entire mainstream of society that a sleeveless dress or something like it is appropriate.

So this doesn't mean there's no such thing as tznius, only that there is no such thing as Beis Yaakov tznius me-ikkar ha-din.

yes, I realize we cannot possibly have a thread of this sort without the obligatory bashing of bais yakov style tznius. Let's dispense with it forewith and get on with the thread.

It surprises me simply that we can use a society like the U.S. as a standard for what it tzniut meikar hadin, when society itself is in flux and there is considerable variation within American society of what is considered modest dress. If there's no such thing as minhag hamakom among Jews, kal v'chomer when you include non-Jewish society. Do we go with the lowest or highest common denominator? Who is setting the standard?

#18 artscroll

artscroll

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 6,681 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 03:44 PM

yes, I realize we cannot possibly have a thread of this sort without the obligatory bashing of bais yakov style tznius. Let's dispense with it forewith and get on with the thread.

It surprises me simply that we can use a society like the U.S. as a standard for what it tzniut meikar hadin, when society itself is in flux and there is considerable variation within American society of what is considered modest dress. If there's no such thing as minhag hamakom among Jews, kal v'chomer when you include non-Jewish society. Do we go with the lowest or highest common denominator? Who is setting the standard?

I didn't bash it. Saying that there is a view of tznius that "there is no such thing as Beis Yaakov tznius me-ikkar ha-din" is not bashing in any way.

All socities are in flux, so that's not really an issue. You ask important questions, but all societies are complex. While you say there is no such thing as minhag hamakom among Jews and especially among non-Jews, that is entirely untrue. There are numerous ways in which the people of different regions of the United States distinguish themselves from one another, and in certain ways Americans and the people of their closest sister nation, the Canadians, are also distinct from one another.

#19 Jeanette

Jeanette

    Pretentious

  • Members
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 03:57 PM

I didn't bash it. Saying that there is a view of tznius that "there is no such thing as Beis Yaakov tznius me-ikkar ha-din" is not bashing in any way.

All socities are in flux, so that's not really an issue. You ask important questions, but all societies are complex. While you say there is no such thing as minhag hamakom among Jews and especially among non-Jews, that is entirely untrue. There are numerous ways in which the people of different regions of the United States distinguish themselves from one another, and in certain ways Americans and the people of their closest sister nation, the Canadians, are also distinct from one another.

I don't agree with this entirely. Just like in New York city you have Williamsburgh tznius and Flatbush Tznius and Boro Park tznius and 5-Towns tznius, with the subtle variations thereof, you also have different standards in secular society, depending on which neighborhood you live in, socioeconomic group and also age group. So are certain things tznius for a 15-year-old, since that's what their demographic is wearing, but not for a 60-yo (forget for a minute about styles and whether it would look ridiculous on a bubby.) What about things that are still avant garde but gradually gaining respectability? Do we watch the trend and see where it goes, and then adopt it 10 or 15 years down the line? Do we davka avoid trends? What would you teach your teenage son/daughter about tzniut?

#20 artscroll

artscroll

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 6,681 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 04:07 PM

I don't agree with this entirely. Just like in New York city you have Williamsburgh tznius and Flatbush Tznius and Boro Park tznius and 5-Towns tznius, with the subtle variations thereof, you also have different standards in secular society, depending on which neighborhood you live in, socioeconomic group and also age group. So are certain things tznius for a 15-year-old, since that's what their demographic is wearing, but not for a 60-yo (forget for a minute about styles and whether it would look ridiculous on a bubby.) What about things that are still avant garde but gradually gaining respectability? Do we watch the trend and see where it goes, and then adopt it 10 or 15 years down the line? Do we davka avoid trends? What would you teach your teenage son/daughter about tzniut?

While this is true, there are still some near universals. Like I said, sleeveless dresses. You will have a hard, hard case to make if you want to claim that in contemporary American society there is never a time and place off the beach where wearing a sleeveless top is generally considered pritzusdik, as opposed to perfectly appropriate. Even if its not appropriate for working in a bank, its still appropriate to wear at one's own wedding. That would be one example of something that really doesn't have any variation, as best I can tell.

You're basically saying an area of halakhah can't be based on social norms, because these are fluid. But consider this: 100 years ago a woman would have been considered positively brazen for wearing a skirt that didn't reach the floor. Today we are told that wearing a skirt that is too long is not modest. Oh, except for weddings. Then it's modest.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users