[Rachel]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

but the question is, who is considered a prisoner?

Why do you think that in itself is hard to determine? If the issue is with respect to who is a prisoner and not their innocence or guilt, I would think that would be pretty easy to ascertain.

[Melech]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

What exactly is Pidyon shevuyim?

Ransoming captives

http://www.jewishenc...search=captives

It is a halachic imperative to ransom Jewish captives. Whether or not it can be anachronistically extended to Jews lawfully incarcerated for breaking the law rather than redeeming captives falsely imprisoned for being Jewish or seized by pirates or for reasons of extortion or for trumped up blood libel charges or for desecrating the 'host' is another question altogether.

[Xi]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:41 PM, said:

Thanks for the explanations.

Here's an interesting PDF I found on the topic:
http://www.jewishage...99/APPENDIX.pdf

[Savannah]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

Why do you think that in itself is hard to determine? If the issue is with respect to who is a prisoner and not their innocence or guilt, I would think that would be pretty easy to ascertain.

Because if it literally means any Jew who is imprisoned for any reason in any place, then I'm sure we've got plenty of Jewish drug dealers and murderers and rapists in the United States who could use some pidyon shevuyim. But somehow it only seems to extend to Orthodox people who commit crimes that people seem to be able to excuse. Like "inadvertent" drug smuggling or Rubashkin's alleged crimes.

[Xi]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Because if it literally means any Jew who is imprisoned for any reason in any place, then I'm sure we've got plenty of Jewish drug dealers and murderers and rapists in the United States who could use some pidyon shevuyim. But somehow it only seems to extend to Orthodox people who commit crimes that people seem to be able to excuse. Like "inadvertent" drug smuggling or Rubashkin's alleged crimes.

I think it extends to people who are imprisoned unfairly. So if people are able to excuse it, they figure it was unfair.

[Rachel]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

Ransoming captives

http://www.jewishenc...search=captives

It is a halachic imperative to ransom Jewish captives. Whether or not it can be anachronistically extended to Jews lawfully incarcerated for breaking the law rather than redeeming captives falsely imprisoned for being Jewish or seized by pirates or for reasons of extortion or for trumped up blood libel charges or for desecrating the 'host' is another question altogether.

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

Here's an interesting PDF I found on the topic:
http://www.jewishage...99/APPENDIX.pdf

Thanks.

The thing is, most western countries today have policies against paying ransoms, so as not to encourage further kidnapping, so I wonder to what extent this really still applies. Is it even followed in Israel?

[doodlehead]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

I think it extends to people who are imprisoned unfairly. So if people are able to excuse it, they figure it was unfair.

There are very few situations that the torah would imprison someone for, and all of them would have to be done with a valid BD.

9

[Melech]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

Thanks.

The thing is, most western countries today have policies against paying ransoms, so as not to encourage further kidnapping, so I wonder to what extent this really still applies. Is it even followed in Israel?

In halachah as well, there is that concern. Famously, the Maharam Merotenberg was kidnapped and held for ransom and he refused to be ransomed by the community since it would just encourage more extortion. he ended up dying in captivity.

Incidentally, that incident changed the face of halachah, because the next in command was the Rosh, so he ended up fleeing Germany for Spain, and he introduced ashkenaz scholarship to Spain, the result being the Arba'ah Turim by his son, which eventually morphed into the Shulchan Aruch 250 years later.

[Xi]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

The thing is, most western countries today have policies against paying ransoms, so as not to encourage further kidnapping, so I wonder to what extent this really still applies. Is it even followed in Israel?

In such cases, ransoming the individual was discouraged.

doodlehead, on Feb 15 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

There are very few situations that the torah would imprison someone for, and all of them would have to be done with a valid BD.

The Torah had different ways of dealing with criminals.

[Rachel]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Because if it literally means any Jew who is imprisoned for any reason in any place, then I'm sure we've got plenty of Jewish drug dealers and murderers and rapists in the United States who could use some pidyon shevuyim. But somehow it only seems to extend to Orthodox people who commit crimes that people seem to be able to excuse. Like "inadvertent" drug smuggling or Rubashkin's alleged crimes.

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

I think it extends to people who are imprisoned unfairly. So if people are able to excuse it, they figure it was unfair.

Interesting, although sometimes people excuse crimes of people they like even if they are guilty, so I'm sure who the person is does factor into whether or not they have community support.

[Savannah]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

I think it extends to people who are imprisoned unfairly. So if people are able to excuse it, they figure it was unfair.

If the authorities were to arrest that child molester rabbi, would they say pidyon shevuyim for him too?

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

The thing is, most western countries today have policies against paying ransoms, so as not to encourage further kidnapping, so I wonder to what extent this really still applies. Is it even followed in Israel?

Of course it is. They released 400 Palestinian prisoners to get back 3 bodies of soldiers.

[doodlehead]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

The Torah had different ways of dealing with criminals.

Yes. Different definition of criminals. And different definition of the word punishment altogether.

9

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Prison is an INHERENTLY "unfair" punishment, one that does not exist in Judaism (except in very specific cases). Kal v'chomer when the prison is either a dangerous environment (which almost ALL are for religious Jews), or one where it is virtually impossible for a person to practice his Judaism.

There's a big difference between a Jew in a Federal Country club with tennis courts and a daf yomi shiur and someone in a maximum security prison with all sorts of animals and antisemites. Or to be in solitary confinement with no food to eat....

The way I see it is that if my biological BROTHER were thrown in jail for something, it doesn't really matter what, I would do everything in my power to get him out, or get a more lenient sentence (unless he posed a clear and present danger to society). So if that is the case, the same should be extended to all of my JEWISH brothers.

Also can't a kal v'chomer be learned from slaves? Why would a Jew end up as a slave owned by a non Jew??? It is not a regular circumstance, and he is probably largely responsible for it himself. Nevertheless we are obligated to do everything (reasonable) in out power to free him, because that is NOT an environment that ANY Jew, even a sinner should be in. So too here IMHO.....

[Savannah]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Incidentally, that incident changed the face of halachah, because the next in command was the Rosh, so he ended up fleeing Germany for Spain, and he introduced ashkenaz scholarship to Spain, the result being the Arba'ah Turim by his son, which eventually morphed into the Shulchan Aruch 250 years later.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

Interesting, although sometimes people excuse crimes of people they like even if they are guilty, so I'm sure who the person is does factor into whether or not they have community support.

Yep.

[Melech]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

Interesting, although sometimes people excuse crimes of people they like even if they are guilty, so I'm sure who the person is does factor into whether or not they have community support.

Of course, but that plays out in the secular world as well. For example, Brenda Martin was imprisoned in Mexico was released and flown home with much government support after a public outcry, while many black Canadians continue to languish in Haitian prisons.
http://blog.macleans...tian-nightmare/

[Xi]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

Interesting, although sometimes people excuse crimes of people they like even if they are guilty, so I'm sure who the person is does factor into whether or not they have community support.

Of course. Sorta like how we excuse Nechama Dina for certain things, but not Lauren.

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

If the authorities were to arrest that child molester rabbi, would they say pidyon shevuyim for him too?

Is he a captive held unjustly?

[Rachel]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

In halachah as well, there is that concern. Famously, the Maharam Merotenberg was kidnapped and held for ransom and he refused to be ransomed by the community since it would just encourage more extortion. he ended up dying in captivity.

Incidentally, that incident changed the face of halachah, because the next in command was the Rosh, so he ended up fleeing Germany for Spain, and he introduced ashkenaz scholarship to Spain, the result being the Arba'ah Turim by his son, which eventually morphed into the Shulchan Aruch 250 years later.

Very interesting, so it's never been blindly followed regardless of the consequences.

[Melech]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

I think a good thing. Obviously part of God's Master Plan so that halachic communities would not continue to develop in almost isolation of each other. Don't forget two hundred years prior to the Rosh leaving Germany for Spain, the Rambam had not heard of Rashi who had died about 100 years before the Rambam died.

[doodlehead]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Prison is an INHERENTLY "unfair" punishment, one that does not exist in Judaism (except in very specific cases). Kal v'chomer when the prison is either a dangerous environment (which almost ALL are for religious Jews), or one where it is virtually impossible for a person to practice his Judaism.

There's a big difference between a Jew in a Federal Country club with tennis courts and a daf yomi shiur and someone in a maximum security prison with all sorts of animals and antisemites. Or to be in solitary confinement with no food to eat....

The way I see it is that if my biological BROTHER were thrown in jail for something, it doesn't really matter what, I would do everything in my power to get him out, or get a more lenient sentence (unless he posed a clear and present danger to society). So if that is the case, the same should be extended to all of my JEWISH brothers.

Also can't a kal v'chomer be learned from slaves? Why would a Jew end up as a slave owned by a non Jew??? It is not a regular circumstance, and he is probably largely responsible for it himself. Nevertheless we are obligated to do everything (reasonable) in out power to free him, because that is NOT an environment that ANY Jew, even a sinner should be in. So too here IMHO.....

My only question is if I'm michuyav to bust people out of jail illegally, or am I yotze my cheeyuv by going through the legal channels. (like hiring lawyers, writing letter, calling my contacts etc.)

9

[Xi]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Also can't a kal v'chomer be learned from slaves? Why would a Jew end up as a slave owned by a non Jew??? It is not a regular circumstance, and he is probably largely responsible for it himself. Nevertheless we are obligated to do everything (reasonable) in out power to free him, because that is NOT an environment that ANY Jew, even a sinner should be in. So too here IMHO.....

Not necessarily. He could've been on a ship minding his own business and then be enslaved. We don't, for example, release and eved ivri who stole and put himself into that situation.