[Savannah]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Prison is an INHERENTLY "unfair" punishment, one that does not exist in Judaism (except in very specific cases).

So if these boys had been caught in Singapore and were going to be caned, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

Quote

Kal v'chomer when the prison is either a dangerous environment (which almost ALL are for religious Jews), or one where it is virtually impossible for a person to practice his Judaism.

There's a big difference between a Jew in a Federal Country club with tennis courts and a daf yomi shiur and someone in a maximum security prison with all sorts of animals and antisemites. Or to be in solitary confinement with no food to eat....

The way I see it is that if my biological BROTHER were thrown in jail for something, it doesn't really matter what, I would do everything in my power to get him out, or get a more lenient sentence (unless he posed a clear and present danger to society). So if that is the case, the same should be extended to all of my JEWISH brothers.

Also can't a kal v'chomer be learned from slaves? Why would a Jew end up as a slave owned by a non Jew??? It is not a regular circumstance, and he is probably largely responsible for it himself. Nevertheless we are obligated to do everything (reasonable) in out power to free him, because that is NOT an environment that ANY Jew, even a sinner should be in. So too here IMHO.....

So I'll look up all the Jewish criminals in jail, and you're going to do pidyon shevuyim for them?

[Savannah]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Is he a captive held unjustly?

I certainly wouldn't think so.

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

I think a good thing. Obviously part of God's Master Plan so that halachic communities would not continue to develop in almost isolation of each other. Don't forget two hundred years prior to the Rosh leaving Germany for Spain, the Rambam had not heard of Rashi who had died about 100 years before the Rambam died.

Holy cow. I didn't know that.

[Xi]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

I think a good thing. Obviously part of God's Master Plan so that halachic communities would not continue to develop in almost isolation of each other. Don't forget two hundred years prior to the Rosh leaving Germany for Spain, the Rambam had not heard of Rashi who had died about 100 years before the Rambam died.

I don't think it was a bad thing that different communities developed separately. It allowed for different ways of seeing halacha and different interpretations. Homogeneity is not always a good thing.

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

I certainly wouldn't think so.

Exactly.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 08:05 PM, said:

Not necessarily. He could've been on a ship minding his own business and then be enslaved. We don't, for example, release and eved ivri who stole and put himself into that situation.

If he's enslaved by GOYIM, we most certainly do....

[doodlehead]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

I certainly wouldn't think

Yes yes, I know.

9

[Xi]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

If he's enslaved by GOYIM, we most certainly do....

Right, because then it is assumed that it is unjust.

doodlehead, on Feb 15 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

Yes yes, I know.

Not nice.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 08:05 PM, said:

So if these boys had been caught in Singapore and were going to be caned, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

Better that, that YEARS of languishing in prison.....

Quote

So I'll look up all the Jewish criminals in jail, and you're going to do pidyon shevuyim for them?

No because I have no money or political influence, but if I DID I would hope I would use it, certainly in extreme cases like this one.....

[Xi]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Better that, that YEARS of languishing in prison.....

Better years of languishing in hospitals?

Quote

No because I have no money or political influence, but if I DID I would hope I would use it, certainly in extreme cases like this one.....

What about in cases of criminals who get a fair trial and fair sentence, but who are not a clear and present danger?

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 08:10 PM, said:

Right, because then it is assumed that it is unjust.

No, because placing a Jew in that environment is INHERENTLY unjust, despite what he may have done.....

[Rachel]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

Of course it is. They released 400 Palestinian prisoners to get back 3 bodies of soldiers.

Yeah, that's true.

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Of course, but that plays out in the secular world as well. For example, Brenda Martin was imprisoned in Mexico was released and flown home with much government support after a public outcry, while many black Canadians continue to languish in Haitian prisons.
http://blog.macleans...tian-nightmare/

I agree with you about Haiti and I remember that story about Brenda Martin. If the black Haitians don't have any high profile people pushing to help them, they will continue languishing in jail.

And Mexico's judicial system is totally corrupt anyway, so she would never receive a fair trial there anyway.

My friend's brother's best friend was murdered in one of the Mexican resorts just a few years ago while vacationing there with his friend, and while in his case there was a huge public outcry in Canada and tons of publicity, the police there were so corrupt and lied about all the facts of the case so that the true killer(s) were never found or prosecuted (or even looked for in his case).

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Of course. Sorta like how we excuse Nechama Dina for certain things, but not Lauren.

Yup

[Melech]

Rachel, on Feb 15 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Very interesting, so it's never been blindly followed regardless of the consequences.

Poskim do very little blindly, even though those who today tend to get in trouble with the law would like their cause to be front burner for the community. And while those who tend to get in trouble with the law, or whose fellow travellers tend to get in trouble with the law, like to exclaim how jail isn't a Jewish concept, seem to ignore the TurChoshen Mishpat 2 where he specifically mentions jail as a legitimate punishment for infraction of the law, if that's what the judge decides.

the test of course if they would be silent if the punishment were to be corporeal punishment, which indeed is a jewish concept.

[Xi]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

No, because placing a Jew in that environment is INHERENTLY unjust, despite what he may have done.....

In a case where the punishment far exceeds the crime.

[Melech]

Savannah, on Feb 15 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

I certainly wouldn't think so.


Holy cow. I didn't know that.

that the Rambam didn't know from Rashi? He didn't. Not at all. However, by the next generation, R. Avraham ben Harambam and Ibn Ezra had what to do with the tosefot like Rabbeinu Tam.

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

I don't think it was a bad thing that different communities developed separately. It allowed for different ways of seeing halacha and different interpretations. Homogeneity is not always a good thing.

Right. that, too, was part of God's Master Plan, that there should be separate development, and then a melding, and then printing should be discovered...we are all but players upon a stage.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

In a case where the punishment far exceeds the crime.

There is no crime that is great enough that causes a Jew to be in an environment where he can't be Jewish.....
Again, if someone is a real danger to society, there is little choice, but as a "punishment" no way......

[Melech]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

Poskim do very little blindly, even though those who today tend to get in trouble with the law would like their cause to be front burner for the community. And while those who tend to get in trouble with the law, or whose fellow travellers tend to get in trouble with the law, like to exclaim how jail isn't a Jewish concept, seem to ignore the TurChoshen Mishpat 2 where he specifically mentions jail as a legitimate punishment for infraction of the law, if that's what the judge decides.

the test of course if they would be silent if the punishment were to be corporeal punishment, which indeed is a jewish concept.

That said, R. Broyde seems to be of the opinion that American jails are so awful that mesirah would arguably be prohibited if a Jew were to be incarcerated as a result - it was in that article that Moshi linked from jlaw.

[Xi]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Right. that, too, was part of God's Master Plan, that there should be separate development, and then a melding, and then printing should be discovered...we are all but players upon a stage.

I think that should be the answer to everything on H.com. It was God's plan that these kids should end up in prison in Japan, just as it was God's plan that certain 8th graders shouldn't be accepted to either of the two schools they applied to. And also that a thirteen-year old should have a kid and that certain people should dream of sex with the president. It solves all problems with no need for discussion.

[Melech]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

I think that should be the answer to everything on H.com. It was God's plan that these kids should end up in prison in Japan, just as it was God's plan that certain 8th graders shouldn't be accepted to either of the two schools they applied to. And also that a thirteen-year old should have a kid and that certain people should dream of sex with the president. It solves all problems with no need for discussion.

Indeed. And if you ask a question, it means you know better than God.

http://www.hashkafah...&...t&p=1249420

[Xi]

Melech, on Feb 15 2009, 01:23 PM, said:

Indeed. And if you ask a question, it means you think you know better than God.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Xi, on Feb 15 2009, 08:22 PM, said:

I think that should be the answer to everything on H.com. It was God's plan that these kids should end up in prison in Japan, just as it was God's plan that certain 8th graders shouldn't be accepted to either of the two schools they applied to. And also that a thirteen-year old should have a kid and that certain people should dream of sex with the president. It solves all problems with no need for discussion.

Indeed, so let's go back to discussing things that matter, like L"H and sports (the only true randomness in the universe)....

[Xi]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Feb 15 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

Indeed, so let's go back to discussing things that matter, like L"H and sports (the only true randomness in the universe)....

We did but then God decreed that certain people should complain about how H.com is going down the drain.