similar to viagra that they sell at cvsviagra effect on libedocialis use after expirationhow to get levitra in indiawhere to order viagra in australiabuy cytotec uklisinopril come in 15mg dosesparoxetine hydrochloride overdosedoes levitra increase blood sugarprednisone not working for lupusseptra dose cellulitismontelukast generic walmart pricehow do people like levitraviagra to make dick harderhow many times can you come with viagraharder to ejaculate on cialiscialis recreational smokersviagra usual dosagelexapro 10 pillcialis and blood testshoppers drugs generic viagracialis starts to workhow much water is added to azithromycin 200mgbest price online viagraboots thailand viagrapaypal female viagrais viagra safe when concievingviagra naturalesflagyl pill sizelevitra 10 mg best pricecialis ed reviewsviagra tablets detailssingle dose fluconazole how long in bodyclomid cost ivfcoversyl and cialisOnline Levitra 60 pillslittle girl swallowed 100mg viagrabye viagra in new yorkdoes viagra help in the long runrate viagrawhere to buy kamagra oral jelly and purchase by paypalbest diet pills onlinebuy azithromycin online no prescription blue pillbuy tramadol viagra order cialisaurochem brand cialistadalafil kamagra uk best pricewhat is the nursing implication of the drug fluconazolewhere to buy cialis online for cheapuse viagra possible everydaycialis super active plus reviewsviagraavailability in indiaglyceryl trinatrite use with viagrametallic purple viagra capsulecan you put viagra in drinkis it safe to take cialis if you dont have edzithromax dose for 4 year oldtaking two 10 mg cialis is same with 20 mgincrease potency of cialiscialis virginphilippines can i buy viagraperth clinic anti depressants french drugsa woman enjoying a man on viagrageneric cialis low priceis steroids safe with viagrausing lisinopril and cialiswhere to buy viagra on holiday barbadosis it safe to take cialis with atrial fibrillationhow to tell doctor about cialisamoxil authorized genericpara sirve sildenafil 100 mgwhere to buy liquid viagra for womenviagra 100mg brandviagra marketing tomhow to get viagra prescribed by doctorlegoengineering viagrahow strong viagraliquid amoxicillin onlinehow long before do i take cialis pillscipla generic viagra onlinehow many viagra can i take in one daybuying viagra online an offence in singaporeare online viagra adverts reliablefinax generic propeciaaustraliapro c etobicoke ontario cialis 25 mglevitra not covered insurancegeneric viagra uk paypal2g metronidazole is equal to how many tabsperiactin safe kidshow long off propeciaeve takes viagrabuy viagra over the phone in new zealandwho is more at risk for priapism with cialiscan i take four 5mg cialiscialis support promo codeold man on viagra blowing a woman through wallcheapest brand viagrawhy is cialis going up in pricewhere to buy 1 gm of azithromycinviagra sans prescrition estrie quebectadalafil 10 mg indiadoes aetna health insurance cover viagraviagra for sale malaysianizoral shampoo london drugscan you viagra and ciaalis in same daylonger to ejaculate with cialisviagra online price in fijiviagra santa fedoes women like her husband take viagraslo niacin and viagrabluebery 100 viagra hudrug effects more side topamaxwhat is the age a man goes on viagraif i take cialis it slower ejaculationterbinafine is not workingviagra sale dczovirax ointment genericviagra male enhancement pillsprednisone 5mg how many a day to treat sinusesquick delivery generic viagrajalan pinang kuala lumpurviagra shopcost of bupropionwhere to buy nexium 40 mg astrazenecawhy doesnt insurance cover cialishow much cialis do i needprice cialis tadalafilcan i take cialis on a full stomachde que esta hecho la viagralamisil cream canada order onlinelevitra 10 mg identificationhow much per pill cialis costlisinopril pets for saleindia pfizer viagra pricewhat percentage of men take viagra or cialaswhere to buy propecia in the united statestaking kamagra and cialis togethercialis cost per pill canadian pharmacyplavix generic release date in usaonline cialis 2nd day shippingadvice from australians on ordering viagra on line plsviagra and moore.tadalafil ou viagrahow can i get my gp to prescribe viagracialis 50 gdiflucan how long to take to workhelp paying for viagrawhat does escitalopram oxalate dopowered by vbulletin cheap generic viagraside effects of levitra ukhow to tell real viagracobra viagra effectssertraline every other daycialisinjurylawyeramoxicillin how to gettadalafil citrate liquid dosageacyclovir tablets canada buy paypalcontrolled substance viagrabest cialis price no prescriptionviagra erzatzviagra 100mg super activelevitra price sams clubtaking viagra u dont needsildenafil citrate and beercelexa overdose dosageviagra seoulviagra purchase point in varanasidoxycycline effects drugsamoxicillin order online no prescription in the ukxenical slimming pills wikipediaviagra first usedis it safe to take viagra while on bendroflumethiazidecan i buy viagra over the counter at walgreenscialis no longer coveredprostata total viagra steuerlich absetzbarcost of monthly propeciareview on female cialisonline order viagra in canada without prescriptioncan you take viagra on a plane 2011viagra tablets rate in lahore pakistanhow long between prednisone burstsphenergan safeviagra prices in delhivenlafaxine duloxetine equivalent doseab diet gone pillwill viagra make you biggerthe pink viagra for women is available in abu dhabihow soon after stopping propecia will hair come outviagra reactionscialis pret 10mghow does viagra get u bigdoes cialis give you more semencialis countriesdoes viagra keep errection aferwhat dosage of doxycycline is taken for syphilisgeneric viagra names sildenafil citratewhere can i buy viagra tablets in delhibactrim liquid buy online ukviagra see wokercialis side effects and dosagebuy propecia in mexicotadalafil premature ejaculationviagra under the hayviagra in usa.comdanger of twice a day sildenafilcialis with muscle relaxercialis generique tadalafilsildenafil troche reviewsis it illegal to take viagra into jamaicafinasteride 1 mg cost indiawhat is the shelf life of doxycycline hyclateviagra dosage and shelf life potencywhere do i find diet pillstips for taking cialishow much is metronidazole without insurancefen phen diet pillbuy cialis no prescripition ukclonidine and cialis togetheratorvastatin generic side effects in teethsildenafil ld50 toxicityno order prescription viagracan i use viagra after taking edexhow is adalat xl absorbedmedicine cialis in indian market with price lsttadalafil femmehow to be a great full specialisthow many pills are in a viagra prescriptionorder lamisil pills from canadabuy discounted viagrathe cheapst place to buy clomidcan i buy viagra in bootsildenafila ratiopharmawhich viagra dosage worksbreakable cialis tabletswhat is bactrim dose for sbp prophylaxissynthroid generic or brand namebuspirone socialslim spa diet pills reviewsbangkok viagra where can buy not onlineyahoo answers generic cialiseffects of viagra on menfake viagra skin pimplesbuy brand name clomidlife expectancy of vardenafiltylenol viagrawhat dose of viagra should i takecialis dosage for startpurchase cialis viagra trial pack with pay pal accounthoodia diet pills hoodia diet pills hoodia diet pillshow fast will orlistat workwhatsviagrageneric lexapro availabledoes an erection still last after coming with viagraeuropean pharmacy cialisis watermelon the new viagrafinasteride generic australiaviagra super active viagra professionalbaclofen 10 mg genericcialis losing effect over timepropecia order from canadamontelukast generic looks likecan i take cialis counterreact with alcoholhow can i buy viagra in walmartcheap viagra uk tescosinteraction between viagra and grapefruitpfizer viagra for women in kolkatawhen will the lipitor generic become availablehow to get rid of a headache ake from cialiscialis real mailhow much is a 30 count of propeciaejaculation without semen cialisbuy taladafil viagraviagra 50mg com 8 comprimidosis it possible to conceive using levitrabaltimore viagrawhat is aposildenafilobuy zovirax pills in uscialis length of time worksxenical joburg where pricevardenafil 30glucophage normal dosewhen will cialis be generic in usclomid dosage to buydear bangaloreans pls help to get viagra in bangalorewould it be ok to give a dog a viagragoldflag viagrapropanolol viagraeat instead of cialishow to use viagra in womenbuy viagra in singapore counterbuy cheap clopidogrelgot arginine cialisviagra curesonline pharmacy adipex diet pillno de can take cialispfizer laps viagrado you need a prescription for doxycyclinezithromax orderacyclovir dose encephalitishomeopathy viagraherbal tadalafil 20mg viagra in ukviagra helps sleepbupropion official sitewhat is price of viagra in delhieveryday use of viagrawho are the cialis commercial womenlevitra taken valiumdoes viagra give you anxietycheap alternative to viagrabuy clomid in thailandviagra pznsafety of finasteride for female hair losstook a month off propeciaviagra available over counter usexceed vigra and cialis 3000mglisinopril drug guiderecommended dfa pharmacies for generic cialiscialis 2.5 walmartwhat are the side effects for metforminlexapro drug medicinehow long propecia workhow long for 250mg zithromax stay in ur systembactrim syrup dose for 11 month babyi use levitracialis form and dosagebuying viagra online guidecialis cheap uk paypalbuy viagra in melbourne over counter australiadoxycycline injection for saleviagra mc mimowhere can you buy viagra over counter in londontaking viagra analyplavix and protonix drug interactionchinese herbal viagra bottletadalafil bintuludoes cialis have an expiration datedoes cialis makes your face go redhow to make viagra sublingualare welbutrin and lexapro in the dame class of drugdiet pills that you can find at wal martdoxycycline hyclate how fast does it work5mg cialis occasional usehow long does 3g of amoxicillin take to workviagrakostabankok natural viagrageneric form of sildenafil citratecostco sildenafilhow much is viagra in the philippinewhat is paroxetine hcl 30 mgdoes viagra make you hard if you not randycan i double viagra if not workingwhere sells viagra in manchesterhow to get your doctor to prescibe viagracialis levitra tercihpurchase dapoxetine hydrochloridetrue cost of viagrabuy gabapentin online 800 mg without prescriptioncialis prices at bootstwo 20mg cialisnifedipine dose for tocolysiswhere in hyd we can find propeciaman take viagra girlcan you keep going on cialishow can i buy viagra without prescriptionhow to take amlodipine and sildenafil safelynew european diet pillmetronidazole early pregnancy gel vs pillwhat vitamins should i take for erectile dysfunctionviagra filmtablsafest way to buy cialis onlineviagra for menurducialis free 30 day free offerdiscount tadalafil onlinedoes levitra and atenelol lower blood pressure too muchcialis discount couplesis generic viagra legal in ukciprofloxacin eye drops order dogsprecio de viagra en la paz boliviahow to enhance effect of cialisplavix generic availability in egyptviagra will i have a climaxmelon better than viagrahow to use progesterone and clomidcheap cialis online pharmacyhow to alleviate headaches using viagraviagra ice cream selfridgeswhen is best time to take your viagracobra viagra 120is there generic viagra yettopiramate safety pregnancyover the counter viagra alternatives in wallgreensyou tadalafil 100can i give blood if i only took one pill propeciataking viagra after ejaculationpara q serve tadalafilwhat to do if cialis hurts stomachmetronidazole 1 dosehow much viagra for recreational usebuy cheap generic valtrexsublinguale tadalafilcialis dosage contraindicationja rule viagracan i cum while on viagrasheep prednisone dosehow much is a 90 day supply of nexiumkamagra pills paypalbuying viagra over the counter in sydneyviagra descretlymetronidazole how much alcoholbuy viagra online using paypal accountwhere did you buy your clomid onlinecialis how long till ejuclationxenical diet pills cancerphendimetrazine diet pilldiflucan without prescriptionshow many mg levitrawhat is dapoxetine used forviagra experation timewhich are used flagyl pills pigeonsthailandese viagrapurchase cialis super activesubstitutes of viagra in indian marketwhat are the ingredients in wellbutrinblood in semen after using viagradrug impotence levitrais there an age limit for taking viagrado you need a prescription for viagra in spainhealthlife cialiswhat happens stop cialis usebuy lisinopril tabscialis dosage suggestionviagra professional vs regular40 mg. levitrawho sells herbal viagrahow much are viagra tabletsdoxycycline 100 mg tabs for dogs once per daylipitor generic doseviagra inder schweizorganic cialis reviewshow long does a viagra hold an erectiondo circumcised men need viagrabuying propecia in cabohow many days to take viagraamoxicillin dose adults otitis medialevitra suppositories ivfwhat are kamagra chewablewhat otc med is equivalent to flagylcialis daily vs 36 hour forummaxalt class druggeneric viagra sample onlineidentify cialisare there any other substitutes for viagrahow i can eat viagrabuy finasteride 02 mglevitra shelflifecan i take 4 tablets 5mg cialis at one timecalox tadalafil redhow much it cost of making viagramasterbating in cialisviagrasold2 levitra pills of 10 mg is the same as one of 20cost of 12.5mg lasix from vetmale viagra womens reviewsinternet cialis good indiahydroxycut harcore diet pills reviewscialis andorraviagra by postviagra pfizer advertisingviagra pills leicesterget viagra value cardswinging women cialislevitra customer reviewviagra over the counter buffalobirth control pills and diet pillshas anyone had cannabis with viagrawho takes viagraviagra way of usedoes propecia work with androgeldifference cialis 10mg 8 vs 36 hourbuy lisinopril tablets 5mglisinopril drug schedulewellbutrin and viagra for womengeneric viagra 50 mg 50cialis legit onlinecialis next day delivery new yorkakk tke doctor about cialiscialis online pharmacy australiaindianwomenviagrafemale viagra in ukgenerica cialis Canadaeph 200 diet pillviagra on airplane without prescriptionnovelty viagralevitra 20mg paypalalbuterol sulfate breahing 4 month oldcan i take cialis and ramipril and amlodipinemy husband uses cialiscialis in walmartin brownwoodtxwere to find sildenafilviagra 500mg for menis viagra available in srilankaviagra cactus

Jump to content


Photo

If not for the persecutions in exile....


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 Moshi

Moshi

    Little Reb Sunshine

  • Members
  • 21,046 posts

Posted 12 May 2009 - 05:59 PM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~

#2 existwhere?

existwhere?

    חסד ואמת

  • Members
  • 11,354 posts

Posted 12 May 2009 - 07:54 PM

What do you think?
"If they would allow one dead soul to visit an assembly of philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings." -R' Nachman



This Is All You're Missing!!! (4,17)
5 Kislev, 5770

#3 DQ

DQ

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,738 posts

Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:01 PM

Good question.

#4 shrigala

shrigala

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 731 posts

Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:03 PM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?



What kind of persecution? Because at a certain level persecution is not conducive to survival...

One could start by looking at minorities and study the combinations: survival/assimilation - persecution/no persecution. Another way would be to study periods in Jewish history and try to estimate what was the assimilation rate relative to the extent (or the kind) of persecution (weren't there some discussions like this on Hashkafah already?)

I was trying to think about a minority that survived a long time without facing persecutions and I though of Polish Tatars. They were Tatar Muslims who served as mercenaries in Polish/Lithuanian armies in XIVth and XVth century. They were given some land and established a community in North Eastern Poland and Lithuania. I couldn't say whether they suffered no restrictions because of their faith, but they were never really persecuted (at least not in Poland, I'm not sure what happened to those who ended up in USSR). They are still around, though it's a small and probably dwindling community.

It's only five centuries, but I think it's not a bad result for a community that was never very big to begin with and which was "imported" and quite different from the surrounding society.

#5 Savannah

Savannah

    ~*~ pixie smile ~*~

  • Members
  • 20,505 posts

Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:53 PM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?

"Either Jews make kiddush or the goyim will make havdalah."

#6 shaya_getzl

shaya_getzl

    Duogenarian ventriloquist

  • Members
  • 7,858 posts

Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:57 PM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?

Probably. The friendlier the host nation, the less was observance intensity.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
"I am, like, kinda retarded. In a good sense of the word" ~ Brianna

#7 existwhere?

existwhere?

    חסד ואמת

  • Members
  • 11,354 posts

Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:43 AM

"Either Jews make kiddush or the goyim will make havdalah."


I always loved that. From R' Chaim of Volozhin iirc.
"If they would allow one dead soul to visit an assembly of philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings." -R' Nachman



This Is All You're Missing!!! (4,17)
5 Kislev, 5770

#8 artscroll

artscroll

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 6,681 posts

Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:50 PM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?

Without persecution, I'm not sure they would have stayed an exile community.

#9 offthed

offthed

    Newbie

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:52 AM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?


I must say that is an interesting question. I would have to say that we would not have survived as a religous nation and over time we would not have survived as a nation at all.

Take America as a microcosm for all of Jewish history. In 60 years since our grandparents came over, the tranquil lifestyle we take for granted has caused most if not many of Orthodox Jewry to lose following. We could argue numbers but no one would disagree that we have seen massive assimilation over the past 6 decades.

Multiply that by 10 or 20 and over the past millenia the Jewish people would no doubt be lost if America was founded in the 11th century as we know if today.

#10 Moshi

Moshi

    Little Reb Sunshine

  • Members
  • 21,046 posts

Posted 02 June 2009 - 05:01 PM

I must say that is an interesting question. I would have to say that we would not have survived as a religous nation and over time we would not have survived as a nation at all.

Take America as a microcosm for all of Jewish history. In 60 years since our grandparents came over, the tranquil lifestyle we take for granted has caused most if not many of Orthodox Jewry to lose following. We could argue numbers but no one would disagree that we have seen massive assimilation over the past 6 decades.

Multiply that by 10 or 20 and over the past millenia the Jewish people would no doubt be lost if America was founded in the 11th century as we know if today.


Alternatively, one could also say that people left Orthodoxy as a reaction to having grown up in a shtetle, no? Certainly the seeds for leaving traditional observance have been sewn and taken hold WELL before "the last 60 years." There are many causes - other than the tranquil American life - for Jews leaving Orthodoxy in the 20th century.
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~

#11 Rentsy

Rentsy

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,005 posts

Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:25 PM

I think we would have done fine.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#12 Monte Cristo

Monte Cristo

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,752 posts

Posted 13 September 2009 - 11:18 PM

I must say that is an interesting question. I would have to say that we would not have survived as a religous nation and over time we would not have survived as a nation at all.

Take America as a microcosm for all of Jewish history. In 60 years since our grandparents came over, the tranquil lifestyle we take for granted has caused most if not many of Orthodox Jewry to lose following. We could argue numbers but no one would disagree that we have seen massive assimilation over the past 6 decades.

Multiply that by 10 or 20 and over the past millenia the Jewish people would no doubt be lost if America was founded in the 11th century as we know if today.


America can't be used an microcosm of all the nations we've been in during Galus. For one it was founded (partially) on elightenment ideals and the level of anti-semitism that existed in America was never as bad as it was in other countries.
1) "I pray my wife has a sex addiction, because I'm more than happy to be an enabler" - Frummy frum
2) "Hanukah is about throwing spears at people who assimilate" - Rentsy
3) "Are you trying to say that consummating one's marriage is bittul Torah?" - Savannah
4) "Men are so insecure in their sexuality. If they see two men with a deep friendship -- gay. If they see a man who isn't constantly lusting after women -- gay" - Savannah
5) "Isn't a divine hora'at sha'ah an even better license to kill than whatever James Bond has?" - Rentsy
"D*mn right" - Snag
6) "Facebook is spiritual chametz, because one becomes inflated with one's sense self importance while sitting around doing nothing" - Rentsy
7) "I always thought belle was a woman........am i wrong?" - Village
8) "When searching for the common denominator for all the members of this site (marketing purposes), I discovered that all the participating members are 'black sheep' in their own cirlces. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked" - Silent J
9) "oy. bible porn. that seems wrong" - Jewess
"I didn't write the script!" - Moshi
10) "I was recently involved in a discussion about the "Yeshiva Uniform", you know where jeans epitomize Satan, and God dresses like an Oreo cookie...." - Isreali4ever

#13 seekinganswers

seekinganswers

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 407 posts

Posted 28 September 2009 - 02:44 PM

Or would the Jews have assimilated quietly over the centuries?


This question is complicated; I don't really understand it. Does it mean, if there were no persecutions against Jewish people, would Jewish people still exist? Wouldn't the population be much higher?


Or, does it mean, if there were no persecutions, would Jewish people who are not in Israel have lost their identity and beliefs and blended into Gentiles?

Also, what does this mean, ""Either Jews make kiddush or the goyim will make havdalah."

Thanks.
"6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. {S} Hallelujah. {P}" - http://www.mechon-ma...e/et/et26f0.htm

#14 rvn2590

rvn2590

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 2,040 posts

Posted 28 September 2009 - 08:36 PM

This question is complicated; I don't really understand it. Does it mean, if there were no persecutions against Jewish people, would Jewish people still exist? Wouldn't the population be much higher?


Or, does it mean, if there were no persecutions, would Jewish people who are not in Israel have lost their identity and beliefs and blended into Gentiles?

Also, what does this mean, ""Either Jews make kiddush or the goyim will make havdalah."

Thanks.


Either Jews make kiddush= either Jews live a life separated unto HaShem (holy means separate), or the nations of the world will separate themselves from the Jews by persecuting them. If Jews don't fulfill their mission as G-d's chosen people, then G-d will remove his hand of protection from the Jewish people allowing the persecution which will remind us that as Jews that we have to fulfill our task as Jews and not try to live as if we were "normal" people. havdalah means to distinguish, separate.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#15 seekinganswers

seekinganswers

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 407 posts

Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:58 AM

Either Jews make kiddush= either Jews live a life separated unto HaShem (holy means separate), or the nations of the world will separate themselves from the Jews by persecuting them. If Jews don't fulfill their mission as G-d's chosen people, then G-d will remove his hand of protection from the Jewish people allowing the persecution which will remind us that as Jews that we have to fulfill our task as Jews and not try to live as if we were "normal" people. havdalah means to distinguish, separate.


Thanks Rvn. I understand now.
"6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. {S} Hallelujah. {P}" - http://www.mechon-ma...e/et/et26f0.htm

#16 Gabbe

Gabbe

  • Members
  • 10,583 posts

Posted 29 September 2009 - 08:07 AM

.
The author hereby expressly and unconditionally reserves all rights stemming from his posts (including copyrights) despite any delusions the administration may have.

#17 Snag

Snag

    הבל יפצה פי

  • Banned
  • 11,108 posts

Posted 29 September 2009 - 11:19 AM

When I was in HS one of the Beards was wont to pontificate on the 105th Psalm, which purports to give an account of the praises of our Light and Salvation. The 25th verse in said Psalm describes what happened in Egypt: "He [the Lord] turned their [the Egyptians'] hearts to hate them [the Jews], to plot against His servants."
How, asks the Beard, is this something to praise the Lord about?
I think you can figure out the answer...

i believe that is sourced in the beis halevi.

there is a similar idea from the chasam sofer, who asks why the verse "v'af gam zos bih'yosom b'eretz oyveyhem lo m'astim v'lo g'altim l'chalosom", which would seem to be a verse of nechomo, is included in the tochocho. he explained it to mean that, as an additional curse, when the jews are in the lands of their enemies hashem doen not make them disgusting and repulsive (in the eyes of said enemies, thus allowing them to become close to them), in order to destroy them.

there is another similar idea from rav chaim volozhiner, the details of which escape me at the moment.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#18 Ezrahite

Ezrahite

    Masmid

  • Members
  • 250 posts

Posted 01 October 2009 - 01:05 AM

Persecution has influenced what's survived and decisions made but persecution per se is not the reason for Jewish survival.

Cleaving to Torah is the reason for the survival and lack of total assimilation.

Peoples to consider:
One example of a people with an apparent common origin that faces distinct persecution and has survived (but in name alone): Gypsies.
They've been around a long time but no one evens knows where they came from. Some are Christian some aren't. Some Gypsies claim they are all from Egypt while others claim India.

We could say 'the Europeans' persecuted 'the Indians' of south and north America and that it hasn't exactly lead to their survival.

#19 Rentsy

Rentsy

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,005 posts

Posted 01 October 2009 - 01:11 AM

Well, it helps that Rabbinic Judaism is a culture carefully crafted to self-perpetuate.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#20 seekinganswers

seekinganswers

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 407 posts

Posted 07 October 2009 - 01:06 PM

Persecution has influenced what's survived and decisions made but persecution per se is not the reason for Jewish survival.

Cleaving to Torah is the reason for the survival and lack of total assimilation.


That makes sense.
"6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. {S} Hallelujah. {P}" - http://www.mechon-ma...e/et/et26f0.htm




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users