[Moshi]

Flickster, on May 19 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

If he truly is seen as a community leader, why is he not involved in more community events? The Rosh Yeshiva spoke about how he would love to "take the collective hands" of the Associated board, look into their eyes, and cry, "The Jewish people!"

However, I have it on good authority that while he has been invited to discuss community issues with the Associated board in the past, he has declined every time.

I just don't buy the claim of "this rally was for us." I know many people said it. However, if it really was for us, all comments should have addressed "our" shabbos issues. I personally only heard three speakers but all three brought up the issue of the JCC opening on shabbos and all three discussed the problems of performing certain activities on shabbos that most definitely don't speak to the majority of the Orthodox community.

A slight side point- I found it interesting that Rabbi Frand spoke negatively of the practice of changing into polo shirts on shabbos afternoon. I would say that that comment was applicable to at most, 2% of the people assembled there.

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

Because they wear polo shirts while walking on the street (to another's house or perhaps when taking one's child to the playground).

Okay, and what does that have to do with Shirley from Westminster?

These people are 100% divorced from reality.

[BroadwayFreak]

FYI, on May 19 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

I guess where I live there is.

I also haven't seen a cholov stam pizza place before. The only place in Baltimore that serves cholov stam isn't under the Star K and most of the items that are made on premise are CY.

[FYI]

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

These people are 100% divorced from reality.

No living, functional person is 100% divorced from reality - 99% possibly.

Anyways, I wasn't there, don't know the politics behind it and just don't like rallies/asifas/etc. especially when caused by such a situation - I'm not into uproars. I'm into you have your opinion, you do what you think is right and move on down.


all this talk about pizza is making me drool.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 09:39 PM, said:

Okay, and what does that have to do with Shirley from Westminster?

These people are 100% divorced from reality.

I've heard this said about a certain rabbi in another city. "He wears his hat and jacket in the supermarket, so everyone else can wear a yarmulke"....

[Very Lucky Guy]

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 02:39 PM, said:

Okay, and what does that have to do with Shirley from Westminster?

From what I understand it is believed (by some? all? accepted halacha? I don't know?) that what one Jew does (in regard to shabbos? everything? I don't know?) affects the spiritual ether to the point that other Jews' behavior is affected. Or something to that effect.

Apparently, that was the primary function of this rally. To tell the people in the community that our laxity in some observance of shabbos is the cause of the lack of spirituality in our non-Orthodox brethren which causes them not to value shabbos.

[Melech]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

Apparently, that was the primary function of this rally. To tell the people in the community that our laxity in some observance of shabbos is the cause of the lack of spirituality in our non-Orthodox brethren which causes them not to value shabbos.

OK, so let's stop wearing polo shirts on shabbat [which I doubt many of that crowd do], and the secularists will stop going to the JCC? Why not mention really sinful things that we, the torah true, do? The worst thing the Orthodox do is to wear polo shirts on shabbat? That's the best we can come up with?

[Moshi]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

From what I understand it is believed (by some? all? accepted halacha? I don't know?) that what one Jew does (in regard to shabbos? everything? I don't know?) affects the spiritual ether to the point that other Jews' behavior is affected. Or something to that effect.

Apparently, that was the primary function of this rally. To tell the people in the community that our laxity in some observance of shabbos is the cause of the lack of spirituality in our non-Orthodox brethren which causes them not to value shabbos.

Aha. So as soon as the frummies at this rally stop wearing polo shirts -- boom the Owings Mills Jewry will do teschuva? The reason Shirley in Westminster drives to the JCC on Shabbos is because Dovid in Pikesville wears polo shirts? Seriously? There are no better reasons for it?

I can think of one better reason. Shirley in Westminster thinks frum people are nuts.

[NY-LON]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

I have never seen it either. It's just easier to make it CY so everyone can eat it. Also Star-K won't certify non-CY (I think, not 100% sure).

They don't, the Star-D is for dairy. Which reminds me: how is Dunkin Donuts in Baltimore kosher then? Who certifies it? (I was past the one on Reiserstown Road last week, ha). I' m sure all the dough comes from a factory somewhere and isn't C"Y.

[Very Lucky Guy]

I think the idea was instead of causing friction by making it an "us vs. them" issue, it was made to put the onus on the already observant. That since we know (or at least the people organizing the rally maintain) that our behavior affects the spiritual ether and people are not observing shabbos, it follows that we are doing something wrong.

I don't readily ascribe to this line of thinking, so I can't really speak for those who do.

[Very Lucky Guy]

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Aha. So as soon as the frummies at this rally stop wearing polo shirts -- boom the Owings Mills Jewry will do teschuva?

Who can say?

Anyway, if you saw the picture in the crowd, most of those folks aren't wearing polo shirts on shabbos anyway. I assume they were directing their comments at the people who take their children to a certain park on shabbos afternoon.

NY-LON, on May 19 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

They don't, the Star-D is for dairy. Which reminds me: how is Dunkin Donuts in Baltimore kosher then? Who certifies it? (I was past the one on Reiserstown Road last week, ha). I' m sure all the dough comes from a factory somewhere and isn't C"Y.

They have a surrogate, an individual rabbi (who I assume is friends with someone in high places) certifies the establishment, as he does certain other places in the community (the sports stadiums kosher food areas in particular).

[Melech]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

I don't readily ascribe to this line of thinking, so I can't really speak for those who do.

Right, I understand that.

Quote

I think the idea was instead of causing friction by making it an "us vs. them" issue, it was made to put the onus on the already observant. That since we know (or at least the people organizing the rally maintain) that our behavior affects the spiritual ether and people are not observing shabbos, it follows that we are doing something wrong.

Or maybe the Torah True just want an opportunity to flex their muscle and to demonstrate that they can.

[agent220]

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 02:27 PM, said:

What are kollel people doing at the JCC anyway?

It's a mitzvah to exercise....

[FYI]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

Who can say?

Anyway, if you saw the picture in the crowd, most of those folks aren't wearing polo shirts on shabbos anyway. I assume they were directing their comments at the people who take their children to a certain park on shabbos afternoon.

I am not sure what park you are referring to? If it's the one I'm thinking of, there are just as many people wearing shabbos clothes as weekday clothes.


Either way, I think they were trying to focus on a 'shabbos' aspect of observance, so couldn't bring up LH as that's not shabbos-related. Personally, if I had to say one area of shabbos observance that I see lacking in the frum community as a whole, is the 18 minute leeway. I have seen so many times people go over that leeway, they don't even consider shabbos starting until 18 minutes and then quickly take their shower, turn off the oven, lights, etc. I never know if I should or shouldn't say something, but I have seen this happen way too many times to be comfortable, imo (and by people that were probably dressed the same way they are at the rally).

[agent220]

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

This makes no sense. They are opening the Owings Mills JCC because some frummy changes into a polo shirt on a Saturday afternoon in his living room?

It's a different hashkafah on the world...negative things that happen are an indication that there is something lacking in our mitzvah observance.
We are not neviim to pretend to know exact correlations, but a communal slight on Shabbos the rabbonim have told us is due to a lack of OUR keeping shabbos, it's a symbol of it. And, like pleats said, I'd much prefer to hear something that makes sense directly like this rather than blaming it on some level of tznius we're lacking which to my mind has no connection.
Our Shabbos isn't perfect, otherwise how could it happen that there would be such a chillul Shabbos in our community?

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

I have never seen it either. It's just easier to make it CY so everyone can eat it. Also Star-K won't certify non-CY (I think, not 100% sure).

Star-D will.

[pleats]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

From what I understand it is believed (by some? all? accepted halacha? I don't know?) that what one Jew does (in regard to shabbos? everything? I don't know?) affects the spiritual ether to the point that other Jews' behavior is affected. Or something to that effect.

Something like that.
Were the only things mentioned "spirit of shabbos" things like polo shirts, or were actual halachos pointed out?

NY-LON, on May 19 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

They don't, the Star-D is for dairy. Which reminds me: how is Dunkin Donuts in Baltimore kosher then? Who certifies it? (I was past the one on Reiserstown Road last week, ha). I' m sure all the dough comes from a factory somewhere and isn't C"Y.

As far as I know, the dough has milk powder in it which the Star-K says does not need to be CY. The milk used for coffee, etc is CY.

[Moshi]

agent220, on May 19 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

It's a different hashkafah on the world...negative things that happen are an indication that there is something lacking in our mitzvah observance.
We are not neviim to pretend to know exact correlations, but a communal slight on Shabbos the rabbonim have told us is due to a lack of OUR keeping shabbos, it's a symbol of it. And, like pleats said, I'd much prefer to hear something that makes sense directly like this rather than blaming it on some level of tznius we're lacking which to my mind has no connection.
Our Shabbos isn't perfect, otherwise how could it happen that there would be such a chillul Shabbos in our community.

Maybe if they actually cared about the non-observant, they would actually discuss and talk about and do something about actual reasons why people are attracted -- and repelled -- by Orthodoxy, and the different things the Orthodox do that offends and keeps away Jews from having anything to do with being frum. But of course it's easier to blame it on the polo shirts.

[agent220]

Very Lucky Guy, on May 19 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

From what I understand it is believed (by some? all? accepted halacha? I don't know?) that what one Jew does (in regard to shabbos? everything? I don't know?) affects the spiritual ether to the point that other Jews' behavior is affected. Or something to that effect.

Apparently, that was the primary function of this rally. To tell the people in the community that our laxity in some observance of shabbos is the cause of the lack of spirituality in our non-Orthodox brethren which causes them not to value shabbos.

Correct.

Melech, on May 19 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

OK, so let's stop wearing polo shirts on shabbat [which I doubt many of that crowd do], and the secularists will stop going to the JCC? Why not mention really sinful things that we, the torah true, do? The worst thing the Orthodox do is to wear polo shirts on shabbat? That's the best we can come up with?

It wasn't ONLY about polo shirts. There were a bunch of examples given. Rav Frand mentioned we can keep shabbos in all the halachos, but the kavod is missing. Most yidden really try to keep Shabbos....we're not going to speak badly about the entire kehilla that they aren't. The point is to treat Shabbos properly, not just according to exacting halacha.

NY-LON, on May 19 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

They don't, the Star-D is for dairy. Which reminds me: how is Dunkin Donuts in Baltimore kosher then? Who certifies it? (I was past the one on Reiserstown Road last week, ha). I' m sure all the dough comes from a factory somewhere and isn't C"Y.

Why didn't you say you were coming to town?

FYI, on May 19 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

Either way, I think they were trying to focus on a 'shabbos' aspect of observance, so couldn't bring up LH as that's not shabbos-related. Personally, if I had to say one area of shabbos observance that I see lacking in the frum community as a whole, is the 18 minute leeway. I have seen so many times people go over that leeway, they don't even consider shabbos starting until 18 minutes and then quickly take their shower, turn off the oven, lights, etc. I never know if I should or shouldn't say something, but I have seen this happen way too many times to be comfortable, imo (and by people that were probably dressed the same way they are at the rally).

That's a good example, but these days it's not so practical with almost the entire Baltimore keeping early Shabbos. If we want something concrete, NOW, we need a different thing to work on before we lose the momentum.

[Flickster]

agent220, on May 19 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

Our Shabbos isn't perfect, otherwise how could it happen that there would be such a chillul Shabbos in our community?

Outside of the JCC issue, I don't think anyone in the Park Heights/Greenspring Orthodox communities really consider Owings Mills "our community."

[Very Lucky Guy]

Melech, on May 19 2009, 03:14 PM, said:

Right, I understand that.


Or maybe the Torah True just want an opportunity to flex their muscle and to demonstrate that they can.

Maybe. I don't know. The truth is that I think the way the rally was covered and presented in the newspaper (it was on the front page of the The Baltimore Sun!) was a tremendous kiddush Hashem. Even if nothing comes of it and the JCC opens, to publically acknowledge that this is what Othodox Judaism stands for was appropriate in my view.

I guess I don't like what the rally was actually for.

I'm also like FYI. I think rallies are silly in general and cause more trouble than they solve.

FYI, on May 19 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

I am not sure what park you are referring to? If it's the one I'm thinking of, there are just as many people wearing shabbos clothes as weekday clothes.


Either way, I think they were trying to focus on a 'shabbos' aspect of observance, so couldn't bring up LH as that's not shabbos-related. Personally, if I had to say one area of shabbos observance that I see lacking in the frum community as a whole, is the 18 minute leeway. I have seen so many times people go over that leeway, they don't even consider shabbos starting until 18 minutes and then quickly take their shower, turn off the oven, lights, etc. I never know if I should or shouldn't say something, but I have seen this happen way too many times to be comfortable, imo (and by people that were probably dressed the same way they are at the rally).

I guess it is all subjective. I don't see the problem with going into the 18 minutes. It isn't shabbos. It's a buffer to be used as such.

That many people at the park wear suits is immaterial. In fact, many people do not and that is what the higher ups don't like apparently.

[agent220]

pleats, on May 19 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

Something like that.
Were the only things mentioned "spirit of shabbos" things like polo shirts, or were actual halachos pointed out?

Rav Frand mentioned our dibbur -- not speaking about mekach u'mimchar...

Moshi, on May 19 2009, 03:25 PM, said:

Maybe if they actually cared about the non-observant, they would actually discuss and talk about and do something about actual reasons why people are attracted -- and repelled -- by Orthodoxy, and the different things the Orthodox do that offends and keeps away Jews from having anything to do with being frum. But of course it's easier to blame it on the polo shirts.

What does that have to do with our level of Shabbos?
Why do you think they don't care? Do you know all the meetings rabbonim go to and how much kiruv IS done in Baltimore? Stop blaming the rabbis for not caring when that has nothing to do with the discussion on hand. You have no knowledge of what the rabbonim do and don't do, so please stop speaking against them.