[enigma]

I have heard people say that it is better to say tehillim during the day, and that it is not recommended to do so at night. Does anyone know if 1) this is true, and if so, 2) what is the source for this?

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Yes it is true, it is al pi Kaballah and only applies until Chatsos

I don't remember the reason but If I remember correctly it applies to all Torah sheb'ktav without perush (like Rahsi etc..)

[Melech]

enigma, on Dec 8 2004, 09:03 PM, said:

I have heard people say that it is better to say tehillim during the day, and that it is not recommended to do so at night.  Does anyone know if 1) this is true, and if so, 2) what is the source for this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bli neder I'll get you the sources later (I have to do it at night because we only discuss kabbalah and other aspects of torah she-be'al peh at night. I can't very well tell you why night time is for torah she-be'al peh during the day!)
But in short, the day is the time for torah she-bichtav and night is the time for torah she-be'al peh. Lots and lots of poskim discuss this (if I recall correctly it's in the Sha'ar HaTziyon at the bottom of the Mishnah Berurah towards the end of volume 2) and the various applications of this minhag al pi kabbalah. The source has to do with a midrash that discusses what Moshe learned at night and what he learned during the day while he was on Har Sinai. The earliest mention of this I remember off hand was in the Recanati which is an early kabbalistic commentary on the Torah which is included in a separate volume of the new Levush (the Levush wrote a commentary on the Recanati).
The problem with tehillim is that although it's clearly torah she-bichtav, the kabbalists have elevated it to a unique status. Secondly, David recited songs of praise at night. Thirdly, tehillim are often said as supplicatary prayers rather than as study of Tanach text. For all these reasons, some make various exceptions for reciting tehillim at night.
But again, bli neder I'll get some of the sources together for you.

[Shlomo]

I was finishing my tehillim a few nights ago when someone started harassing me about saying tehillim at night. I told him that if I have to go gehinom I hope it will be for saying tehillim at night.

I think this is a classic example of how people are very makpid on many little things while they forget the more important stuff. Maybe there really is reason not to say tehillim at night, but on my list of things i need to work on, it is pretty far down.

[NIRC1]

Hashem sits on the kisei din, so to mention someone would cause him/her to be judged b'midas hadin which we don't want.

[Melech]

NIRC1, on Dec 9 2004, 09:16 AM, said:

Hashem sits on the kisei din, so to mention someone would cause him/her to be judged b'midas hadin which we don't want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The beit din shel ma'alah convenes at night?

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

melech, on Dec 9 2004, 04:43 PM, said:

NIRC1, on Dec 9 2004, 09:16 AM, said:

Hashem sits on the kisei din, so to mention someone would cause him/her to be judged b'midas hadin which we don't want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The beit din shel ma'alah convenes at night?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course, they're busy in Kollel the whole day..

Would you suggest they be mevatel torah to judge YOU?

[Yehudi]

The sefer tamei hminhagim brings from the shulchan aruch arizal [I’ll check up later iy"h to see where it is in the actual kisvei arizal], where it explains that the night is the bechina of gevura and the day is the bechina of chessed, therefore you should not read mikra (which includes chumash and tehillim) at night being that mikra is the bechina of day chessed.

Thursday night you can read mikra, since that then we already start preparing for shabbos and the bechina of rachamim is nisorer then, this would mean that for sure on shabbos itself you can learn mikra by night.

Quote

The source has to do with a midrash that discusses what Moshe learned at night and what he learned during the day while he was on Har Sinai.

With what hashem learned...

The chida writes in birkie yosef simon 238:2 brings from the yalkut shimoni, that when moshe was on the mountain he knew when it was day and night, by wathcing hashem, if hashem was learning mikra that meant it was day and if he was learning mishna it meant is was night.

[enigma]

Thanks for the answers, everyone.

Just curious, another question: If you're saying tehillim every day (for day of the week/month), if you do end up saying it at night, should you be saying it for the day that it was during the day, or the day that is "tomorrow"?

[TheDuncePolice]

I've asked this Shaila a few times, and was told that Tehillim should not really be said at night. But Tehillim for a choleh, or for a Tzara could be said at night. Today, the situation the world over is so bad, and we are in Tzaros that it could be said at night.
I've heard this more than once already.
[deleted]

[miri]

Shlomo, on Dec 9 2004, 09:03 AM, said:

I was finishing my tehillim a few nights ago when someone started harassing me about saying tehillim at night. I told him that if I have to go gehinom I hope it will be for saying tehillim at night.

I think this is a classic example of how people are very makpid on many little things while they forget the more important stuff. Maybe there really is reason not to say tehillim at night, but on my list of things i need to work on, it is pretty far down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not detrimental to you, but for the person you're saying it for. The wrong celestial beings are listening at night; saying Tehillim then may do more harm than good.

[Melech]

Yehudi, on Dec 9 2004, 11:20 AM, said:

The sefer tamei hminhagim brings from the shulchan aruch arizal [I’ll check up later iy"h to see where it is in the actual kisvei arizal], where it explains that the night is the bechina of gevura and the day is the bechina of chessed, therefore you should not read mikra (which includes chumash and tehillim) at night being that mikra is the bechina of day chessed.

Thursday night you can read mikra, since that then we already start preparing for shabbos and  the bechina of rachamim is nisorer then, this would mean that for sure on shabbos itself you can learn mikra by night.

Quote

The source has to do with a midrash that discusses what Moshe learned at night and what he learned during the day while he was on Har Sinai.

With what hashem learned...

The chida writes in birkie yosef simon 238:2 brings from the yalkut shimoni, that when moshe was on the mountain he knew when it was day and night, by wathcing hashem, if hashem was learning mikra that meant it was day and if he was learning mishna it meant is was night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer Chapter 46 and the Tanchuma Ki Tissa paragraph 36 refer to God teaching and Moshe Learning.

Enigma - the Sha'ar HaTziyon at the bottom of the Mishnah Berurah is in Orach Chaim 238. It's also in the Be'er Heitev on top of the Mishnah Berurah.
The Recanati that I mentioned as the ealiest source that I know of where this is codified is in Parshat Yitro.
Other places this is mentioned that are easily accessible are Ben Ish Chai Parshat Pekudei (first year) number 7, and the Kaf HaChayim OC 237:9 - which both mention the Ari. The Ari was the one who popularized this minhag al pi kabbalah. The Birchei Yoseph to which Yehudi refers is OC 238:2.
But there are targumim (eg. Shir Hashirim) where it's implied it's appropriate to learn mikra at day and torah she-be'al peh at night. There's also a R. Bechayei that says mikra is appropriate during the day (ha-ma'or hagadol) and torah she-be'al peh at night (ha-ma'or ha-katan).

Hopefully last night you still said the verses of va-yitein lecha and of keri'at shema she'al ha-mitah in spite of the general objection of kabbalists to reciting verses of mikra at night.

[Yehudi]

melech, on Dec 12 2004, 06:15 AM, said:

Yehudi, on Dec 9 2004, 11:20 AM, said:

The sefer tamei hminhagim brings from the shulchan aruch arizal [I’ll check up later iy"h to see where it is in the actual kisvei arizal], where it explains that the night is the bechina of gevura and the day is the bechina of chessed, therefore you should not read mikra (which includes chumash and tehillim) at night being that mikra is the bechina of day chessed.

Thursday night you can read mikra, since that then we already start preparing for shabbos and  the bechina of rachamim is nisorer then, this would mean that for sure on shabbos itself you can learn mikra by night.

Quote

The source has to do with a midrash that discusses what Moshe learned at night and what he learned during the day while he was on Har Sinai.

With what hashem learned...

The chida writes in birkie yosef simon 238:2 brings from the yalkut shimoni, that when moshe was on the mountain he knew when it was day and night, by wathcing hashem, if hashem was learning mikra that meant it was day and if he was learning mishna it meant is was night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer Chapter 46 and the Tanchuma Ki Tissa paragraph 36 refer to God teaching and Moshe Learning.

....It's also in the Be'er Heitev on top of the Mishnah Berurah.
The Recanati that I mentioned as the ealiest source that I know of where this is codified is in Parshat Yitro.

....But there are targumim (eg. Shir Hashirim) where it's implied it's appropriate to learn mikra at day and torah she-be'al peh at night. There's also a R. Bechayei that says mikra is appropriate during the day (ha-ma'or hagadol) and torah she-be'al peh at night (ha-ma'or ha-katan).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see, but did you see the biur hardal there? he explains that that s how Moshe knew when it was day and when it was night ... [now if it was from what he himself did that would not show him anything...only they learned together...so he knew if it was day or night from what hashem learned ]

About the targum that the Rikanti brings the radal says there that we are missing that targum.

[Melech]

I'm not really sure about that . First of all, I have a hard time believing God sat and learned with Moshe. He taught Moshe. Every midrash (that I've seen) says so. The way I understand it, when God taught mikra is was perforce day, and when God taught mishnah Moshe knew it was night.

Maybe the Radal in PDRE Chapter 46 note 10 didn't have that Targum on Shir HaShirim 5:10, but I do. And I find that a little hard to believe as well. The Targum that the Recanati in Parshat Yitro (d"h Ve-da ki tzarich adam le-hit'aseik ...) quotes in my copy of the Recanati is almost word for word the Targum that's in my Mikra'ot Gedolot Shir HaShirim 5:10.

[HaBenYakirLi]

melech, on Dec 12 2004, 02:15 PM, said:

it's implied it's appropriate to learn mikra at day and torah she-be'al peh at night. There's also a R. Bechayei that says mikra is appropriate during the day (ha-ma'or hagadol) and torah she-be'al peh at night (ha-ma'or ha-katan).

At the risk of sounding like a sociologist, perhaps we learned Torah sheBICHTAV during the day because it's easier to read a book when the sun is out so you can see.
At night, when it was dark, we learned Torah orally - Ba'al peh.

Yes, there really was a time when we didn't have electricity to keep Batei Midrashot fully lit all night.

May eyes be opened to the Torah, illuminated by the light of Chanukah.

[Melech]

HaBenYakirLi, on Dec 13 2004, 07:58 AM, said:

melech, on Dec 12 2004, 02:15 PM, said:

it's implied it's appropriate to learn mikra at day and torah she-be'al peh at night. There's also a R. Bechayei that says mikra is appropriate during the day (ha-ma'or hagadol) and torah she-be'al peh at night (ha-ma'or ha-katan).

At the risk of sounding like a sociologist, perhaps we learned Torah sheBICHTAV during the day because it's easier to read a book when the sun is out so you can see.
At night, when it was dark, we learned Torah orally - Ba'al peh.

Yes, there really was a time when we didn't have electricity to keep Batei Midrashot fully lit all night.

May eyes be opened to the Torah, illuminated by the light of Chanukah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought about that too but from a slightly different angle. We never lein at night (I'm not counting simchat torah night - that's a unique exception). And the only keri'a even from anything else is Eichah and Esther. And arguably those two aren't really "learning mikra" because Esther is a form of hoda'ah and Eichah is a lamentation - it's not talmud torah in the way a regular keriat hatorah is. I sort of assumed that's because keria is a daytime obligation partly because there's simply no light.
And even those obligations to recite text is usually at the beginning of the night when there's still some light (that's part of the argument against R"T - because the kohanim ate while there was still a bit of light even though it was after tzeit).
The other thing some poskim mention with regard to torah she'be'al peh at night is that the daytime is for working (is that kefira?), which means one comes home at night and is able to have both time and concentration for study in depth.

[Yehudi]

melech, on Dec 12 2004, 12:02 PM, said:

I'm not really sure about that . First of all, I have a hard time believing God sat and learned with Moshe. He taught Moshe. Every midrash (that I've seen) says so. The way I understand it, when God taught mikra is was perforce day, and when God taught mishnah Moshe knew it was night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are other places where it says that hashem sits and learns Torah just to bring one example, Avoda Zora 3b "there are twelve hours in the day the first three hashem sits and learns second three he judges..." if your question is what does it mean the hashem learned that I do not know...

HaBenYakirLi, on Dec 13 2004, 07:58 AM, said:

melech, on Dec 12 2004, 02:15 PM, said:

it's implied it's appropriate to learn mikra at day and torah she-be'al peh at night. There's also a R. Bechayei that says mikra is appropriate during the day (ha-ma'or hagadol) and torah she-be'al peh at night (ha-ma'or ha-katan).

At the risk of sounding like a sociologist, perhaps we learned Torah sheBICHTAV during the day because it's easier to read a book when the sun is out so you can see.
At night, when it was dark, we learned Torah orally - Ba'al peh.

Yes, there really was a time when we didn't have electricity to keep Batei Midrashot fully lit all night.

May eyes be opened to the Torah, illuminated by the light of Chanukah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Radal cited above says that...