[Savannah]

Are these things really in the Gemara? If so, where?

[Rentsy]

A levite shows a Rabbi how they used to do this cool type of bowing by standing on their thumbs, he breaks his back.

Pronouncing the shem hameforash can do all sorts of cool things, not the least, kill people.

Teleportation... I guess we have kvitzat haderech.

Pulsa Denura is probably too scary to joke around with though.

[shrigala]

Rentsy, on Nov 3 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

A levite shows a Rabbi how they used to do this cool type of bowing by standing on their thumbs, he breaks his back.

Pronouncing the shem hameforash can do all sorts of cool things, not the least, kill people.

Teleportation... I guess we have kvitzat haderech.

Pulsa Denura is probably too scary to joke around with though.

Wow, it's an actual Hebrew term? I thought Frank Herbert made it up.

[Rentsy]

shrigala, on Nov 3 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

Wow, it's an actual Hebrew term? I thought Frank Herbert made it up.

Yea, I know, but "Shortener of the Path" [as the name for a messianic figure] makes too much sense in context. The Bene Gesserit are looking for someone to work as their tool to make their plans, which would take eons, happen sooner by demi-supernatural means. That is the role of the Kwisatz Haderach.

Paul also becomes a Kwisatz Haderech sooner than the Bene Gesserit [or should I say, Bnei Gesserit] expect, shortening the temporal timeline and bringing the "destination" [a kwisatz haderech] closer [as a true kvitzatz haderech would]!

[shrigala]

Rentsy, on Nov 3 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Yea, I know, but "Shortener of the Path" [as the name for a messianic figure] makes too much sense in context. The Bene Gesserit are looking for someone to work as their tool to make their plans, which would take eons, happen sooner by demi-supernatural means. That is the role of the Kwisatz Haderach.

Paul also becomes a Kwisatz Haderech sooner than the Bene Gesserit [or should I say, Bnei Gesserit] expect, shortening the temporal timeline and bringing the "destination" [a kwisatz haderech] closer [as a true kvitzatz haderech would]!

Does Gesserit mean anything?

[Shemmy]

Rentsy, on Nov 3 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

I guess we have kvitzat haderech.

It's spelled with a fei - qefitsat haderech

Quote

Pulsa Denura is probably too scary to joke around with though.

I actually like that one. You know that Metatron had to endure that one in order to show someone in the Hechaloth that he (Metatron) was a created being, lest the traveler err and commit an act of aboda zara.

shrigala, on Nov 3 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

Wow, it's an actual Hebrew term? I thought Frank Herbert made it up.

Herbert borrowed a lot: Iblis is the name of the devil in Islamic lore, Agamemnon and the other Titans are from Greek mythology, etc.

shrigala, on Nov 3 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

Does Gesserit mean anything?

No, and "bene" isn't meant to be any sort of play on "benei."

[Rentsy]

Shemmy, on Nov 3 2009, 04:45 PM, said:

No, and "bene" isn't meant to be any sort of play on "benei."

I contest that. You have the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilax. It looks like Bene functions like Bnei, in that you can have Bnei _____, like Bnei Akiva. The Bene identifies it as a movment, while the word that comes after Bene identifies which specific movement it refers to.

(This is all my conjecture and in no way did Frank Herbert tell me what the "real" answer is)

[shrigala]

Shemmy, on Nov 3 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Herbert borrowed a lot: Iblis is the name of the devil in Islamic lore, Agamemnon and the other Titans are from Greek mythology, etc.

Sure, but the Hebrew themes were much less obvious to me that's why I was surprised. Except the clear allusions to Jews towards the end of the story of course. Though I remember it surprised me. One appeal of the book is that it creates this futuristic climate by inserting symbols, and beliefs from contemporary cultures but modified and in news contexts, as if they were just some remnants of a distant past. So you have all those "Orange Catholic Bible" stuff (but no Christians or Catholics) but suddenly you see Jews, basically unchanged.

[Shemmy]

shrigala, on Nov 3 2009, 09:02 PM, said:

but suddenly you see Jews, basically unchanged.

That part cracked me up.

[shrigala]

Shemmy, on Nov 3 2009, 09:27 PM, said:

That part cracked me up.

Ok, so I'm not the only one who found it slightly incongruous in the context of the general story.

[Rentsy]

Apparently, these "faiths" are in the OC Bible:

The Hasidic Lutheran Dynasty
Hasidislamic Union
The Talmudic Zabur Followers
The Neomaimonidist Rabbinate

I'd love to see Talmudic Zabur Followers. Or Hasidic Lutherans...

[bigtoe]

Religions of Dune (via wikip, so take it for what it's worth..). Even Stormfront picked up on the Jewish thread throughout the book..

[David F]

Shemmy, on Nov 4 2009, 02:45 AM, said:

It's spelled with a fei - qefitsat haderech

Perhaps Rentsy was using a transliteration to German or Dutch.

[Shemmy]

Rentsy, on Nov 4 2009, 01:17 AM, said:

Apparently, these "faiths" are in the OC Bible:

The Hasidic Lutheran Dynasty
Hasidislamic Union
The Talmudic Zabur Followers
The Neomaimonidist Rabbinate

I'd love to see Talmudic Zabur Followers. Or Hasidic Lutherans...

You forgot Zensunni

bigtoe, on Nov 4 2009, 02:10 AM, said:

Religions of Dune (via wikip, so take it for what it's worth..). Even Stormfront picked up on the Jewish thread throughout the book..

Ah, good old Stormfront, lol.

[Pinchas]

Savannah, on Nov 4 2009, 01:11 AM, said:

Are these things really in the Gemara? If so, where?

Teleportation: You don't have to Gemara even, look how Eliezer was teleported in this weeks parsha and Avraham in last weeks.

Killing people with thoughts: I know of two instances Rabbi Yochanan "burned him eyes into someone" and they became "a pile of bones." One was Rav Kahana (in BK) and one we just did in Daf Yomi (BB arond daf 70) a talmid of his that didn't believe what he said about giant pearls.

Thumbs: Mentioned already, though Raish Lakish could do pretty cool stuff physically as well. As could Rav Kahana.

[warren]

Pinchas, on Nov 8 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Teleportation: You don't have to Gemara even, look how Eliezer was teleported in this weeks parsha and Avraham in last weeks.

Do tell. In the parsha, not in Rashi.

P.S. I have a raayah that kfitzat haderech involves super speed, not teleportation. There's a maaseh about the Baal Shem Tov that he once took a journey and the horses noticed all of the stops on the journey pass them by at high speed.

[Snag]

warren, on Nov 8 2009, 04:48 AM, said:

Do tell. In the parsha, not in Rashi.

P.S. I have a raayah that kfitzat haderech involves super speed, not teleportation. There's a maaseh about the Baal Shem Tov that he once took a journey and the horses noticed all of the stops on the journey pass them by at high speed.

but hoe do we know that the horses were telling the truth? after all, a chassidishe ferd is a ligener

[warren]

Snag, on Nov 8 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

but hoe do we know that the horses were telling the truth? after all, a chassidishe ferd is a ligener

There's a slippery slope from disbelieving the horses to disbelieving the whole story to believing that Avraham took 318 people with him rather than one, and they traveled all the way to Dan the same way other people travel, to labeling Avraham as a myth. This is exactly the same process whereby ten commandments are reduced to only two spoken by HKBH, to just the word Anochi, to just the Aleph.

[Rentsy]

To just the intake of breath as if in preperation to say "Ah-"

And so on Har Sinai, the universe took a deep breath, and we have been interpreting it ever since.

Naw. You wouldn't want people to believe that.

On the other hand, Hyperion has Jews. In space. Continuity points for having the Rabbis mention that "God broke his promise to Noah not to destroy the world..."

They establish some sort West Bank settlement on some planet. [edit] The planet is named "Hebron".

Also, in the book, Catholic Christianity has 5,000 adherents in the entire galaxy. Catholic Christianity is also the One True Faith, and everyone knows that it is the One True Faith. But no one cares. (Ironic/Funny)

[shaya_getzl]

Shemmy, on Nov 3 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Herbert borrowed a lot: Iblis is the name of the devil in Islamic lore, Agamemnon and the other Titans are from Greek mythology, etc.

Huh ?