[lazerjet]

Well last night I was feeling kinda cruddy because my room was being annoying so I drank. Then I went to a bar to watch a band play. I actually felt really nice. I was talking to some people and felt very at ease (I'm usually quite socially anxious, which is another reason why I drink sometimes). I am still a little concerned that I'm self medicating with alcohol.

Today I got a good start to the day and made myself another list of things to do. So far these lists have worked.

I am going to visit the Unemployment office. I am eligible for unemployment because I worked last year until I lost my job but for some reason it's taking them a long time to get back to me.

[moe says]

lazerjet, on Nov 20 2009, 01:29 PM, said:

Well last night I was feeling kinda cruddy because my room was being annoying so I drank. Then I went to a bar to watch a band play. I actually felt really nice. I was talking to some people and felt very at ease (I'm usually quite socially anxious, which is another reason why I drink sometimes). I am still a little concerned that I'm self medicating with alcohol.

It seems like you recognize that thats a slippery slope, which is good. TBS I don't think there is anything wrong with using alcohol in that way, especially when you are going out. In fact one of the chashuvim of lakewood (R' Yehuda Jacobs) who gives a great, and widely attended chosson shmuze in lakewood yeshiva suggested doing so for bachurim who are nervous before a shidduch.

I understand that most people around you (and probably most people on this forum) are likely to respond to such a thing in an alarmist way, but I wanted to tell you that not everyone who drinks for that reason ends up being an alcoholic. And that your personal succes in enjoying life the last few days is in no way diminished by your drinking (within reason). And when you get yourself set up with meds, and a job/structure which definitely makes a huge difference, and you don't need to drink to enjoy yourself in a social setting, ma tov uma naim.

It really is nice to hear that you're working to de-stagnate yourself, and I personally hope that I take a little chizuk from you, and take some leaps that are hard/scary for me.

keep us posted

[Savannah]

moe says, on Nov 20 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

It seems like you recognize that thats a slippery slope, which is good. TBS I don't think there is anything wrong with using alcohol in that way, especially when you are going out. In fact one of the chashuvim of lakewood (R' Yehuda Jacobs) who gives a great, and widely attended chosson shmuze in lakewood yeshiva suggested doing so for bachurim who are nervous before a shidduch.

This deserves its own thread.

Done. http://www.hashkafah...ate-t63599.html

[moe says]

Savannah, on Nov 20 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

This deserves its own thread.

look it up, he gives the same shmuze every year, and there are numerous tapes, maybe snag, or anyone else who went out in lakewood can confirm.

[TheDuncePolice]

moe says, on Nov 20 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

It seems like you recognize that thats a slippery slope, which is good. TBS I don't think there is anything wrong with using alcohol in that way, especially when you are going out. In fact one of the chashuvim of lakewood (R' Yehuda Jacobs) who gives a great, and widely attended chosson shmuze in lakewood yeshiva suggested doing so for bachurim who are nervous before a shidduch.

I understand that most people around you are likely to respond to such a thing in an alarmist way, but I wanted to tell you that not everyone who drinks for that reason ends up being an alcoholic. And that your personal succes in enjoying life the last few days is in no way diminished by your drinking (within reason). And when you get yourself set up with meds, and a job/structure which definitely makes a huge difference, and you don't need to drink to enjoy yourself in a social setting, ma tov uma naim.

It really is nice to hear that you're working to de-stagnate yourself, and I personally hope that I take a little chizuk from you, and take some leaps that are hard/scary for me.

keep us posted

While it might be true (or might not be true) what that 'chashuv person' in lakewood says, that's vastly different than someone who is struggling with depression and needs an escape from his emotions drinking. Often, when one is struggling with depression, it is a great risk to even turn to alcohol once. It can give that person the calm that they were craving for. It's worse than a slippery slope. Advising him to drink to feel calm is about the worst thing you can do to someone who is struggling with depression. Especially because he says that no meds have helped. It might feel like a last resort thing for him to find peace.

Lazer, I think it's great that you are aware that you have turned to alcohol to escape your depression for a short while. Keeping your finger on the pulse on that can help you stay afloat and not go down that road.

[moe says]

TheDuncePolice, on Nov 20 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

While it might be true (or might not be true) what that 'chashuv person' in lakewood says, that's vastly different than someone who is struggling with depression and needs an escape from his emotions drinking. Often, when one is struggling with depression, it is a great risk to even turn to alcohol once. It can give that person the calm that they were craving for. It's worse than a slippery slope. Advising him to drink to feel calm is about the worst thing you can do to someone who is struggling with depression. Especially because he says that no meds have helped. It might feel like a last resort thing for him to find peace.

Lazer, I think it's great that you are aware that you have turned to alcohol to escape your depression for a short while. Keeping your finger on the pulse on that can help you stay afloat and not go down that road.

Listen, there are many levels of debilitating depression. In the western world there is an automatic cut off when you mention the word "clinical" which is a term defined by the dsm-iv diagnostic criterion and paskend by the doctors who make a living off of people having a "serious" problem. There are good people who are doctors, and there are people who have been helped tremendously by medication. There are also people who are in a grey area, and will not necessarily benefit by being branded as a clinical "case". And there are doctors who take advantage of these people.

There are also people, just plain humans (usually the good ones), who can feel (very) down facing a seemingly cruel and incomprehensible world for a whole range of reasons. What is important here is how Lazer views himself, and that he is taking steps to improve his situation. I don't hear escape here, I hear courage to face situations which are difficult.

The main point is that there are many methods to approaching depression: exercise and sunlight, getting a job, being creative/productive are definitely the best. And I understand that Lazer is in the process of finding himself a counselor who will be trying to understand him, and help him find which method suits him best. In the mean time he should feel proud of taking steps that are hard to take, and not confused by having chosen methods which are not necessarily complete solutions.

[Shoshi]

The difference between "clinical depression" and just feeling "sad" (which we all do sometimes, and is normal), is that clinical depression manifests itself in PHYSICAL symptoms, such as appetite increase or decrease, weight loss or gain, increase or decrease in sleep, anhedonia (unable to be interested or enjoy activities we usually/used to enjoy), etc.) By the way, the symptoms also have to be present for weeks, not just a day or two of "feeling down."

I agree with the other poster that turning to alcohol when we are depressed (or anxious) is not a good idea for several reasons. First of all, alcohol is addictive for many people, so to add the risk of addiction to an already serious problem of depression just makes things more difficult in the end.

Secondly, alcohol is a depressant, so while one might feel better in the short-term, the next day, and long-term, alcohol can actually induce depression or worsen symptoms of depression that already exist.

[Savannah]

moe says, on Nov 20 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

look it up, he gives the same shmuze every year, and there are numerous tapes, maybe snag, or anyone else who went out in lakewood can confirm.

Then he's wrong every year.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Shoshi, on Nov 20 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

I agree with the other poster that turning to alcohol when we are depressed (or anxious) is not a good idea for several reasons. First of all, alcohol is addictive for many people, so to add the risk of addiction to an already serious problem of depression just makes things more difficult in the end.

Secondly, alcohol is a depressant, so while one might feel better in the short-term, the next day, and long-term, alcohol can actually induce depression or worsen symptoms of depression that already exist.

Yeah, definitely smoke pot instead

[Ahavati]

lazerjet, on Nov 18 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

So far I haven't done much other than finished watching THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAM and writing this message.

Which one?! The classic or remake?

[TheDuncePolice]

moe says, on Nov 20 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

Listen, there are many levels of debilitating depression. In the western world there is an automatic cut off when you mention the word "clinical" which is a term defined by the dsm-iv diagnostic criterion and paskend by the doctors who make a living off of people having a "serious" problem. There are good people who are doctors, and there are people who have been helped tremendously by medication. There are also people who are in a grey area, and will not necessarily benefit by being branded as a clinical "case". And there are doctors who take advantage of these people.

There are also people, just plain humans (usually the good ones), who can feel (very) down facing a seemingly cruel and incomprehensible world for a whole range of reasons. What is important here is how Lazer views himself, and that he is taking steps to improve his situation. I don't hear escape here, I hear courage to face situations which are difficult.

The main point is that there are many methods to approaching depression: exercise and sunlight, getting a job, being creative/productive are definitely the best. And I understand that Lazer is in the process of finding himself a counselor who will be trying to understand him, and help him find which method suits him best. In the mean time he should feel proud of taking steps that are hard to take, and not confused by having chosen methods which are not necessarily complete solutions.

This still hasn't responded to what I wrote above. All is well and good, but, as Shoshi said, it's a bad idea to turn to alcohol when one is so vulnerable and desperate to just feel better.

[krumlikeapretzel]

moe says, on Nov 20 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

In fact one of the chashuvim of lakewood (R' Yehuda Jacobs) who gives a great, and widely attended chosson shmuze in lakewood yeshiva suggested doing so for bachurim who are nervous before a shidduch.

I understand that most people around you (and probably most people on this forum) are likely to respond to such a thing in an alarmist way, but I wanted to tell you that not everyone who drinks for that reason ends up being an alcoholic. And that your personal succes in enjoying life the last few days is in no way diminished by your drinking (within reason). And when you get yourself set up with meds, and a job/structure which definitely makes a huge difference, and you don't need to drink to enjoy yourself in a social setting, ma tov uma naim.

You're very wrong. Alcohol creates a physiological dependence, which means it changes the chemistry in your brain to the point where you need more and more of it to feel normal. The reason why medications such as SSRIs are used to the exclusion of alcohol and drugs has to do with the potential for addiction, ie for them to be counterproductive in the long run.

A bachur who's scared of going out on a date and has a drink once a month is not going to develop a physiological dependence. A person who's depressed who starts drinking is going to be drinking several times a day every day and will become an alcoholic very rapidly.

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Nov 21 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

Yeah, definitely smoke pot instead

Actually marijuana doesn't cause a physiological dependence and might be more effective than many conventional treatments, especially in the short run. The criminalization of marijuana is a way the state has continued to abuse its citizens.

[Shoshi]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 07:47 PM, said:

.Actually marijuana doesn't cause a physiological dependence and might be more effective than many conventional treatments, especially in the short run. The criminalization of marijuana is a way the state has continued to abuse its citizens.

In addition to being a social worker, I am currently studying toward my credential as an alcohol and substance abuse counselor.

The marijuana that was around in the 70s and 80s perhaps wasn't terribly addictive, but the pot being sold on the street these days is stronger and more potentially addictive.
I have certainly had clients that did get addicted to marijuana, smoked it several times per day, and couldn't function without it. In addition, one of my clients went to rehab for marijuana, as he felt it was negatively affecting his life.

In addition, marijuana, like alcohol, is a depressant, and can - in the long run - make symptoms of depression worse. Not recommended.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Shoshi, on Nov 22 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

The marijuana that was around in the 70s and 80s perhaps wasn't terribly addictive, but the pot being sold on the street these days is stronger and more potentially addictive.

They started those bunk rumors in the 60's.....

[krumlikeapretzel]

Shoshi, on Nov 21 2009, 07:31 PM, said:

The marijuana that was around in the 70s and 80s perhaps wasn't terribly addictive, but the pot being sold on the street these days is stronger and more potentially addictive.
I have certainly had clients that did get addicted to marijuana, smoked it several times per day, and couldn't function without it. In addition, one of my clients went to rehab for marijuana, as he felt it was negatively affecting his life.

There's two possible issues:
#1 Marijuana is not physiologically addictive, but like any other activity can become psychologically addictive, just like gambling, using the internet, shopping, playing video games, etc.
#2 Some of the pot sold on the street could be adulterated with other substances which could create a physiological dependence. But if it's only pot, no matter how "strong" it is, it's not physiologically addictive.

Quote

In addition, marijuana, like alcohol, is a depressant, and can - in the long run - make symptoms of depression worse. Not recommended.

The only negative outcome of marijuana consumption, if it's really marijuana, and marijuana only, besides psychological dependence, would be trouble with the law.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 22 2009, 03:44 AM, said:

The only negative outcome of marijuana consumption, if it's really marijuana, and marijuana only, besides psychological dependence, would be trouble with the law.

And the urge to go to 7-11 purchase and quaff and entire container of Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia....

[Shoshi]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 08:44 PM, said:

There's two possible issues:
#1 Marijuana is not physiologically addictive, but like any other activity can become psychologically addictive, just like gambling, using the internet, shopping, playing video games, etc.
#2 Some of the pot sold on the street could be adulterated with other substances which could create a physiological dependence. But if it's only pot, no matter how "strong" it is, it's not physiologically addictive.

The only negative outcome of marijuana consumption, if it's really marijuana, and marijuana only, besides psychological dependence, would be trouble with the law.

Yes, the marijuana sold now is adulterated with other substances. It is also stronger.

Some drugs are not physiologically addictive, but that doesn't mean they're not addictive.
Did you know that cocaine is not physiologically addictive?
However, crack cocaine and IV cocaine are among the most addictive, if not the more addictive, substances on earth.

Alcohol is physically addictive and withdrawal can be fatal.
Heroin is also physically addictive but withdrawal, while uncomfortable, is not fatal.

Drugs like cocaine and marijuana are not physically addictive, but can be psychologically addictive.

[krumlikeapretzel]

Shoshi, on Nov 21 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

Yes, the marijuana sold now is adulterated with other substances.

If the "man" was interested in public safety as opposed to showing they're in charge, this would be the biggest argument for legalization of pot. Pot should be legalized and then be subjected to quality controls to make sure it's not adulterated with anything else.

[lazerjet]

Ahavati, on Nov 21 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

Which one?! The classic or remake?

The classic. Wow, what a film! Michael Laughton who played Quasimodo definitely deserved an oscar for that role. Too bad Gone With the Wind and a host of other classics came out the same year.

[lazerjet]

Quick Update:

I spend Shabbos at a friends house. I'm glad I went out of town because constantly in my apartment is not good for my emotional well being, especially since relations between me and my roommate have become somewhat strained recently (I blame almost entirely on my condition. I hoped she would be more understanding than she is).

I enjoyed spending time with my friends family and his lovely siblings but for some reason by the time the afternoon came around I was fully awash in angst. I felt extremely worked up and anxious (feeling fearful and nervous about the future, afraid nothing will ever really change etc.). Something didn't feel right. I got through the rest of the day somewhat ok. Ironically I was reading 2 very positive books over Shabbos. The first was Tuesdays With Morrie by Mitch Albom and the other one was Happiness is a Serious Problem by Dennis Prager.

I came home and took care of some things (I find that I am not putting off things as much as I used to, simple things like doing laundry, learning how to use my new phone, finally writing that letter etc.) Being home alone on a weekend is always tough for me as I imagine everyone out there just having a grand old time. So i went out again to a local bar , had just 2 drinks and watched a band play.

I am planning on attending an AA meeting this week. Even if I am not a serious alcoholic, I think the support group can only have a positive effect on me.