[TheDuncePolice]

How would you explain this concept to someone who really wants to know? Having the tree on the right side and the menorah on the left side isn't exactly being honest about your beliefs, is it?? Can the two work together?

[krumlikeapretzel]

[Shemmy]

The sad truth is that secular Jews are likely to blame for the equivocation. Hanouka is a minor holiday for us, while Christmas is the second most important day on the Christian calendar. Observant Jews understand this, and we don't (generally) treat Hanouka as if it were "the Jewish Christmas." However, someone somewhere had to secularize the holiday and make it "the Jewish Christmas." My bet is with the non-observant population. When the subject needs clarification, I just point out that Hanouka is not a major holiday, but that it's been commercialized in the same way that Christmas, All Hallow's Eve, and other holidays have been. It doesn't require much detail and people are usually satisfied with the answer.

[Rentsy]

Hannuka is about throwing spears at people who assimilate.

[brianna]

Rentsy, on Nov 18 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

Hannuka is about throwing spears at people who assimilate.

Which is why I find it so ironic that secular Jews celebrate it. I certainly don't.

[moe says]

That's easy.
Hannukah is a celebration of our freedom from the greeks, who did not want to kill us physically, but rather sought to bring foreign/pagan culture into our lives effectively destroying everything distinctly jewish about jews...
I think the rest is pretty clear.

[TheDuncePolice]

As usual, I was unclear. I tend to do that. (Yay for being articulate.)

Someone asked what's wrong with having a tree topped by a menorah? Or what's wrong in telling kids that santa loves jewish kids as much as any other kid and he brought gifts for them?

[krumlikeapretzel]

Rentsy, on Nov 18 2009, 10:44 PM, said:

Hannuka is about throwing spears at people who assimilate.

Huh?
Chanukah is about eating latkes and jelly doughnuts, playing dreidel, and having some hot cocoa next to the Chanukah bush menorah.

As usual, the people responsible for conflating Chanukah and Exmas somehow intuitively grasped that the same religious syncretism which made Xtians celebrate Yoshke's birth on the Yule festival was probably responsible for the way in which Chanukah is celebrated. (Evidently certain pagan customs were "taken back" and made anti-pagan symbols by the Chashmonaim... )

[Shuli]

...

[bigtoe]

Shuli, on Nov 19 2009, 12:34 AM, said:

..aren't taught that xmas is an xtian holiday..

Actually, it isn't at all! Its a conglomeration of different nationalities' folk tales (think about the guy in the reindeer suit-- it's red on the outside because it's still has blood on it from when he killed it and lined in fur on the inside where the hide is). I can give you more specific examples later today if you're interested.

[Shemmy]

bigtoe, on Nov 19 2009, 02:44 AM, said:

Actually, it isn't at all! Its a conglomeration of different nationalities' folk tales (think about the guy in the reindeer suit-- it's red on the outside because it's still has blood on it from when he killed it and lined in fur on the inside where the hide is). I can give you more specific examples later today if you're interested.

Christmas is a Christian holiday. Many of the symbols associated with Christmas have been picked up over the years, but that doesn't change the fact that Christians celebrate an important aspect of their religion on December 25th. The date was fixed by the Church long before St Nicholas or any other symbol we associate was around (except maybe trees).

[Hezakiah]

TheDuncePolice, on Nov 18 2009, 10:39 PM, said:

How would you explain this concept to someone who really wants to know? Having the tree on the right side and the menorah on the left side isn't exactly being honest about your beliefs, is it?? Can the two work together?

You could tell them that Hanukah celebrates the Jews of the Southern Kingdom's defeat of the Greeks and Hellenized Jews of the Northern Kingdom,the building and dedication of the Second Temple, and the restoration of our freedom to practice our faith while Christmas is a holiday that takes the Mithra cult beliefs and connects them to the birth of a Jewish heretic's supposed birthday.Mithrah first appears as an Aryan sun-god in Sanskrit and
Persian literature circa 1400 BCE. The cult was introduced into
the Roman empire in the 1st century BCE.

Mithra was:

* Born to the "virgin Mirra" in a stable on the winter solstice,
or December 25th on the Julian calender.

* He was visited by shepherds and showered with gifts.

* Generally pictured with a halo around his head.

* He was worshipped on Sunday (His holy feast-day of rest).

* Some sources report that Mithra, knowing his fate,
took a last supper with his followers before returning
to his father in the heavens.

* It is taught that Mithra did not truly die a final death,
but was raised and ascended into the heavenlies.

* According to ancient myth, Mithra will return some
day in the future, near the "End of Time," and cause
the literal physical resurrection all all peoples for a
final judgment. The righteous will enter the realm of
the heavenlies and the evil will spend eternity in hellfire.

* All believers in Mithra who are baptized in his name
will have a share in immortality.

The Disciples of Mithrah:

* Have a central leader who speaks infallibly in the name
of Mithra. This leader's designation is "Papa" and his throne
is located on the Vatican Hill of Rome.

* Instituted a celebration of Mithra's death and resurrection.

* Instituted the sacrament called MYAZDA which consisted
of a consecrated meal of bread and wine.

Or you could just say the two holidays have nothing in common and that Hanukah is better because:
1. There''s no "Donny & Marie Hanukkah Special" 2. Eight days of presents (in theory, anyway). 3. No need to clean the chimney. 4. There's no latke-nog. 5. Burl Ives doesn't sing Hanukkah songs. 6. You won't be pressured to buy Hanukkah Seals. 7. You won't see, "You're a Putz, Charlie Brown". 8. No barking dog version of "I had a Little Driedl". 9. No pine needles to vacuum up afterwards. 10. Latkes are cheaper to mail than fruitcakes.

[Savannah]

Rentsy, on Nov 18 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

Hannuka is about throwing spears at people who assimilate.

brianna, on Nov 18 2009, 11:46 PM, said:

Which is why I find it so ironic that secular Jews celebrate it. I certainly don't.

moe says, on Nov 18 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

That's easy.
Hannukah is a celebration of our freedom from the greeks, who did not want to kill us physically, but rather sought to bring foreign/pagan culture into our lives effectively destroying everything distinctly jewish about jews...
I think the rest is pretty clear.

If you hear secular people talking about Chanukah, they highlight other aspects of Greek oppression, such as droit de seigneur.

http://en.wikipedia....eigneur#History

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

It's a bit early this year, but here goes. Have them read this....

Down With Hanukah
By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l

If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - Hanukah.

It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.

The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.

This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."

What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting against?

For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!

At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.

But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. He was a Jew.

When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"

What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?

And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.

Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?

Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.

[Very Lucky Guy]

I don't understand how someone could not understanding the absurdity of performing religious practices of two different religions at the same time. I do not believe someone "really would want to know." If someone asked me that I would assume they were trying to mock me. I wouldn't answer and I would either be obnoxious back to them or walk away depending on my mood.

[Melech]

Very Lucky Guy, on Nov 19 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

I don't understand how someone could not understanding the absurdity of performing religious practices of two different religions at the same time.

Why not? What if someone sees the celebrations as cultural celebrations? Or celebrations of different cultures?
Not everyone is as parochial as Orthodox Jews and many try to be inclusive and take, adopt, and even internalize aspects of different groups. One can pick and choose those aspects of a religion that appeal to the person.

(Obviously I dont' personally advocate celebrating Dec. 25. But I can see someone celebrating aspects of both De.c 25 and Chanukah if they have a different world view than I do.
And obviously I don't actually advocate picking and choosing aspects of various religions. Again, I'm just saying what some people do).

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Melech, on Nov 19 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

Why not? What if someone sees the celebrations as cultural celebrations? Or celebrations of different cultures?
Not everyone is as parochial as Orthodox Jews and many try to be inclusive and take, adopt, and even internalize aspects of different groups. One can pick and choose those aspects of a religion that appeal to the person.

unless someone is particularly "devout", why WOULDN'T they want to experience the good things that other religions have to offer? It's not like people see EITHER as a "religious ceremony", it's the "holiday season".... What's wrong with lighting candles, plaing dreidel, and eating donuts, or l'havdil decorating trees, singing songs, and giving presents? To most Americans "celebrating Xmas" is no different than wearing green on St. Patrick's day or eating Turkey on Thanksgiving.....

[Very Lucky Guy]

Melech, on Nov 19 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

Why not? What if someone sees the celebrations as cultural celebrations? Or celebrations of different cultures?
Not everyone is as parochial as Orthodox Jews and many try to be inclusive and take, adopt, and even internalize aspects of different groups. One can pick and choose those aspects of a religion that appeal to the person.

(Obviously I dont' personally advocate celebrating Dec. 25. But I can see someone celebrating aspects of both De.c 25 and Chanukah if they have a different world view than I do).

Then I would be talking to a wacked out liberal whom I could not convince to abandon the above practice no matter what I said (certainly not by explaining anything in religious terms) and mocking them or walking away would still be the correct action.

[Melech]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Nov 19 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

unless someone is particularly "devout", why WOULDN'T they want to experience the good things that other religions have to offer? It's not like people see EITHER as a "religious ceremony", it's the "holiday season".... What's wrong with lighting candles, plaing dreidel, and eating donuts, or l'havdil decorating trees, singing songs, and giving presents? To most Americans "celebrating Xmas" is no different than wearing green on St. Patrick's day.....

Or take the example of St. Valentine's Day. A lot of Jews acknowledge the day as a celebration of romance. Just go back to old h.com threads from around that time in previous years.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

Melech, on Nov 19 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Or take the example of St. Valentine's Day. A lot of Jews acknowledge the day as a celebration of romance. Just go back to old h.com threads from around that time in previous years.

Or the yearly thread about goyim at the Pesach Seder. If THEY come to our "events", why would someone Jewish (who isn't particularly interested in keeping Kosher), object to attending Xmas dinner with their non Jewish friends???