[thefrumatheist]

After you vote on it write why



thefrumatheist

[rvn2590]

thefrumatheist, on Nov 21 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

After you vote on it write why



thefrumatheist

The Rambam says so.

[existwhere?]

Why do you care?

Do atheists believe in Gehennom?

[krumlikeapretzel]

thefrumatheist, on Nov 21 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

thefrumatheist

Yes, I've been to the Hinom valley (that's the only "gehennom" there is). They have some interesting archeological remains (of the Beis Hamikdosh).

I guess this answers the question beyond a doubt. Atheists do go to Gehennom.

[Moshi]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

Yes, I've been to the Hinom valley (that's the only "gehennom" there is). They have some interesting archeological remains (of the Beis Hamikdosh).

I guess this answers the question beyond a doubt. Atheists do go to Gehennom.

What's the connection between the Hinom valley and Gehennom?

[velvym]

I suppose it depends upon practice, extent and reality of atheism, etc. What's the difference? More theists go to gehinnom than there are professing atheists.

[Rentsy]

Moshi, on Nov 21 2009, 07:58 PM, said:

What's the connection between the Hinom valley and Gehennom?

The Hinom valley is where giant ovens were. Children were thrown into these ovens, as sacrifices to Molech. From archaeological digs, we have found that they had lots of musical instruments, presumably to cover up the screaming.

So imagine screaming children, crying mothers, fires roasting human flesh, and happy music playing.

That's the Valley of Hinom, and it's pretty much Gehinom.

I could say that it's impossible for an atheist to be sure that G-d doesn't exist, therefore there are no apikorsim anymore.

[jewess]

Rentsy, on Nov 21 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

I could say that it's impossible for an atheist to be sure that G-d doesn't exist, therefore there are no apikorsim anymore.

why anymore? what changed?

[Rentsy]

jewess, on Nov 21 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

why anymore? what changed?

Kant you guess?

Well, not really Kant. But everything changed as a result of Kant. Along with him, the idea that the All could not be properly considered. This feeds into the post-Modern idea that since we all have different life experiences, you can never truly walk in my shoes, and never truly know me.

Oooo. Epistemic uncertainty. The solution, of course, is to be Pragmatic and do the best you can.

Which means a person could say "I don't find the evidence towards G-d/Jewish tradition compelling enough to live my life according to it."

And I'm not so sure what I would say to that.

[krumlikeapretzel]

Moshi, on Nov 21 2009, 09:58 PM, said:

What's the connection between the Hinom valley and Gehennom?

It's the literal meaning of Gehennom. (Gei Hinom)

velvym, on Nov 21 2009, 09:59 PM, said:

I suppose it depends upon practice, extent and reality of atheism, etc. What's the difference? More theists go to gehinnom than there are professing atheists.

So you've seen the figures published by the gehennom census bureau? Could you provide a link?

Rentsy, on Nov 21 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

The Hinom valley is where giant ovens were. Children were thrown into these ovens, as sacrifices to Molech. From archaeological digs, we have found that they had lots of musical instruments, presumably to cover up the screaming.

That was such a Nazi thing to do...

Quote

So imagine screaming children, crying mothers, fires roasting human flesh, and happy music playing.

Just like Auschwitz.

Quote

I could say that it's impossible for an atheist to be sure that G-d doesn't exist, therefore there are no apikorsim anymore.

If you say so.

Rentsy, on Nov 21 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

Kant you guess?

Well, now that we're doing corny puns, I can tell you that I if you want to know the truth, you Kant go wrong with Daat Emet.

Quote

Oooo. Epistemic uncertainty. The solution, of course, is to be Pragmatic and do the best you can.

Hey, whatever works for you.

[Monte Cristo]

jewess, on Nov 22 2009, 12:06 AM, said:

why anymore? what changed?

The Enlightenment, assimilation, a lessening of divince providence (if one is frum this started during the Babylonian Exile, aka Purim involving no blatant miracles or Hashem's name) making it easier to believe in............ nothing. To be a true apikorais one has to intentionally rebel against Hashem after having knowing that Hashem exists, gave us the Torah, etc.

[velvym]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 11:16 PM, said:

So you've seen the figures published by the gehennom census bureau? Could you provide a link?

Based on the qualifiers, it is a rather educated guess, but I'd say much more educated and less guess.

[krumlikeapretzel]

velvym, on Nov 21 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

Based on the qualifiers, it is a rather educated guess, but I'd say much more educated and less guess.

And the existence of gehennom itself is more educated or more guess?

[Rentsy]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 08:16 PM, said:

Hey, whatever works for you.

Well, if you do decide that THERE IS NO GOD at all and there can be no possibility thereof...

I go with the Rambam, who says you go poof when you die.

[velvym]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

And the existence of gehennom itself is more educated or more guess?

All of my responses were operating under the assumption that it does, and working with the qualifiers that those who express belief in the place use to determine who does and doesn't go there. I didn't say whether or not I believed in it myself, but if I'm going to speak about something, I think it is better to use the rules and definitions that those who belief in it actually use themselves. Otherwise I think the whole discussion would be rather worthless.

[Monte Cristo]

Rentsy, on Nov 22 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

Well, if you do decide that THERE IS NO GOD at all and there can be no possibility thereof...

I go with the Rambam, who says you go poof when you die.

Meaning what? Said atheist really does die permanently (no Olom Hoba, no meeting an angel, no relevation that Hashem is real)?

[krumlikeapretzel]

velvym, on Nov 21 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

All of my responses were operating under the assumption that it does, and working with the qualifiers that those who express belief in the place use to determine who does and doesn't go there. I didn't say whether or not I believed in it myself, but if I'm going to speak about something, I think it is better to use the rules and definitions that those who belief in it actually use themselves. Otherwise I think the whole discussion would be rather worthless.

I see.

Rentsy, on Nov 21 2009, 10:26 PM, said:

I go with the Rambam, who says you go poof when you die.

Let me get this straight... (no pun implied) The Rambam says a guy who dies goes poof? So basically according to this, the Olam Haemes is like the Castro?

[lambda]

Rentsy, on Nov 22 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

I go with the Rambam, who says you go poof when you die.

Where does the Rambam say that? Edit: oh, you mean an atheist, not people in general? I'm slow tonight.

[krumlikeapretzel]

lambda, on Nov 21 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

Where does the Rambam say that? Edit: oh, you mean an atheist, not people in general? I'm slow tonight.

Oh, so it's only atheists who become gay? So if you're gay and atheistic, will you become straight when you die? What if you're bi-curious?
This is important.

[velvym]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

Oh, so it's only atheists who become gay? So if you're gay and atheistic, will you become straight when you die? What if you're bi-curious?
This is important.

If we're becoming the opposite, I suppose you'd like neither...maybe, since you're curious. Or maybe for sure, since certainty is the opposite of curiosity...