[Rentsy]

Monte Cristo, on Nov 21 2009, 08:28 PM, said:

Meaning what? Said atheist really does die permanently (no Olom Hoba, no meeting an angel, no relevation that Hashem is real)?

The souls of everyone who has not sufficiently perfected their soul loses all distinguishing features when it attempts to recombine with G-d. The fusion simply overwhelms them.

The idea of life is to do mitzvot and learn Torah so that one does not go poof, says the Rambam, and so maintain a distinct "self" in the Olam shel Emet.

I mean poof as in "become a puff of smoke that dissipates quickly". This is rather similar to the atheistic doctrine of "fade away into nothingness". You get what you sign up for.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

No, you're doomed to be reincarnated as fat chicks, until you get your acts together....

[krumlikeapretzel]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Nov 22 2009, 03:47 AM, said:

No, you're doomed to be reincarnated as fat chicks, until you get your acts together....

Again?

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 22 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Again?

Would you rather be a toadstool next time (and I DON'T mean the Princess)??? I might be able to arrange it upstairs....

[krumlikeapretzel]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Nov 22 2009, 04:03 AM, said:

Would you rather be a toadstool next time (and I DON'T mean the Princess)??? I might be able to arrange it upstairs....

Only if I can be in Super Mario Bros.

[Kalashnikover_Rebbe]

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 22 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

Only if I can be in Super Mario Bros.

Fine, but you have to be Yoshi....

[krumlikeapretzel]

Kalashnikover_Rebbe, on Nov 22 2009, 04:10 AM, said:

Fine, but you have to be Yoshi....

There's worse things.

[Monte Cristo]

Rentsy, on Nov 22 2009, 12:08 AM, said:

The souls of everyone who has not sufficiently perfected their soul loses all distinguishing features when it attempts to recombine with G-d. The fusion simply overwhelms them.

The idea of life is to do mitzvot and learn Torah so that one does not go poof, says the Rambam, and so maintain a distinct "self" in the Olam shel Emet.

I mean poof as in "become a puff of smoke that dissipates quickly". This is rather similar to the atheistic doctrine of "fade away into nothingness". You get what you sign up for.

So in other words be careful what you wish for. The question then is what happens to theists who don't perfect themselves? I mean at what point does one learn enough Torah/do enough mitzvot no to "go poof"?

[Rentsy]

Monte Cristo, on Nov 22 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

So in other words be careful what you wish for. The question then is what happens to theists who don't perfect themselves? I mean at what point does one learn enough Torah/do enough mitzvot no to "go poof"?

Well, you're never done enough. I'll also point out that, at lest in my mind, it isn't a matter of learning a certain number of dafim or doing a certain number of mitzvot. "Some people earn the world to come in a lifetime, and others in a single moment." It's all about actually being changed as a person.

[thefrumatheist]

existwhere?, on Nov 21 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

Why do you care?

Do atheists believe in Gehennom?

No. I am just interested in the viewpoints.

krumlikeapretzel, on Nov 21 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

Yes, I've been to the Hinom valley (that's the only "gehennom" there is). They have some interesting archeological remains (of the Beis Hamikdosh).

I guess this answers the question beyond a doubt. Atheists do go to Gehennom.

LOL!

velvym, on Nov 21 2009, 10:59 PM, said:

I suppose it depends upon practice, extent and reality of atheism, etc. What's the difference? More theists go to gehinnom than there are professing atheists.

Oh so you believe in the angry God who punishes people for not believing in the right faith?

Monte Cristo, on Nov 21 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

The Enlightenment, assimilation, a lessening of divince providence (if one is frum this started during the Babylonian Exile, aka Purim involving no blatant miracles or Hashem's name) making it easier to believe in............ nothing. To be a true apikorais one has to intentionally rebel against Hashem after having knowing that Hashem exists, gave us the Torah, etc.

What do you mean by "rebel"?

[Monte Cristo]

Rentsy, on Nov 22 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Well, you're never done enough. I'll also point out that, at lest in my mind, it isn't a matter of learning a certain number of dafim or doing a certain number of mitzvot. "Some people earn the world to come in a lifetime, and others in a single moment." It's all about actually being changed as a person.

So Olom Hoba is something that's real if you want to be then? That makes sense at the same time it doesn't. On one hand why should someone who believes nothing (from a religious POV, they can certainly believe in arbitrary social ideals) get into Olom Hoba. Then again Hashem has to give us reward for every mitzvah (although it's possible to get this reward here), although one can argue that only mitzvot done with Kavanah count for that purpose, so someone who did mitzvot/learned Torah who then became an atheist should still get into Olom Hoba. I suppose anyway.

thefrumatheist, on Nov 22 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

What do you mean by "rebel"?

You do aveira's intentionally to make G-d "angry" (not that such a thing is possible).

[thefrumatheist]

Monte Cristo, on Nov 22 2009, 01:23 PM, said:

So Olom Hoba is something that's real if you want to be then? That makes sense at the same time it doesn't. On one hand why should someone who believes nothing (from a religious POV, they can certainly believe in arbitrary social ideals) get into Olom Hoba. Then again Hashem has to give us reward for every mitzvah (although it's possible to get this reward here), although one can argue that only mitzvot done with Kavanah count for that purpose, so someone who did mitzvot/learned Torah who then became an atheist should still get into Olom Hoba. I suppose anyway.



You do aveira's intentionally to make G-d "angry" (not that such a thing is possible).

Yeah that would seem stupid. But the argument of everyone is somewhat agnostic could get you off.

[Rentsy]

Monte Cristo, on Nov 22 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

So Olom Hoba is something that's real if you want to be then? That makes sense at the same time it doesn't. On one hand why should someone who believes nothing (from a religious POV, they can certainly believe in arbitrary social ideals) get into Olom Hoba. Then again Hashem has to give us reward for every mitzvah (although it's possible to get this reward here), although one can argue that only mitzvot done with Kavanah count for that purpose, so someone who did mitzvot/learned Torah who then became an atheist should still get into Olom Hoba. I suppose anyway

Well, the downside (or, upside) of the Rambam's formulation is that it is not clear what is neccessary for the perfection of the soul. He SAYS that you need to believe in the 13 Principles of Faith to perfect your soul, but that's not exactly clear. Ra'avad is particularly vehement in declaring that unwitting or simple belief in, say, the corporeality of God will not preclude people from existing in the world to come.

So, technically speaking, if krum and frum, despite what they profess to believe, continue to perfect their souls and develop as sensitive, thinking people... they might do just fine.

[Monte Cristo]

Rentsy, on Nov 22 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

Well, the downside (or, upside) of the Rambam's formulation is that it is not clear what is neccessary for the perfection of the soul. He SAYS that you need to believe in the 13 Principles of Faith to perfect your soul, but that's not exactly clear. Ra'avad is particularly vehement in declaring that unwitting or simple belief in, say, the corporeality of God will not preclude people from existing in the world to come.

So, technically speaking, if krum and frum, despite what they profess to believe, continue to perfect their souls and develop as sensitive, thinking people... they might do just fine.

Today I suppose one could argue that there's no such thing as a "true" apikorais or atheist in light of the lack of obvious divine providence (Guys like Ahab, Yeroboam ben Nevat and Gehazi who did lose their portion in Olom Hoba lived in a time then you had nevua and blatant miracles so they had no excuse unlike people today).

[Rentsy]

Monte Cristo, on Nov 22 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

Today I suppose one could argue that there's no such thing as a "true" apikorais or atheist in light of the lack of obvious divine providence (Guys like Ahab, Yeroboam ben Nevat and Gehazi who did lose their portion in Olom Hoba lived in a time then you had nevua and blatant miracles so they had no excuse unlike people today).

No... Rambam thinks that you "need" to believe in God and stuff, because belief in God and stuff is neccessary for the perfection of the soul.

Ra'avad disagrees, saying that people who did not, for example, believe God was incorporeal, were still great Rabbis, and it is unthinkable to say that they had no portion in the world to come

So, I suggest that if you can somehow manage to continue to perfect your soul without believing in some things (and Rambam thinks you just can't) then you might not fade away into nothingness when you die.

[Monte Cristo]

Rentsy, on Nov 22 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

No... Rambam thinks that you "need" to believe in God and stuff, because belief in God and stuff is neccessary for the perfection of the soul.

Ra'avad disagrees, saying that people who did not, for example, believe God was incorporeal, were still great Rabbis, and it is unthinkable to say that they had no portion in the world to come.

So, I suggest that if you can somehow manage to continue to perfect your soul without believing in some things (and Rambam thinks you just can't) then you might not fade away into nothingness when you die.

Given that he's one of the few rabbi's who's universally accepted/revered it's hard to argue with the Rambam. Although a source from the Vilna Goan or Chafetz Chaim could work. Then again I do find the idea that if one believes G-d is corporeal negating one's future existence even if one was frum in every other respect a bit out there.

[Rentsy]

Monte Cristo, on Nov 22 2009, 11:27 AM, said:

Given that he's one of the few rabbi's who's universally accepted/revered it's hard to argue with the Rambam. Although a source from the Vilna Goan or Chafetz Chaim could work. Then again I do find the idea that if one believes G-d is corporeal negating one's future existence even if one was frum in every other respect a bit out there.

Which is exactly what the Ra'avad is talking about!

Ra'avad draws a distinction between "accidentally" not believing in one of the Thirteen and purposefully rejecting them, but in the end, the Rambam's formulation sees them as necessary. No amount of well-meaning piety can, to the Rambam, overcome the lack of a necessary trait to entrance in the world to come. Ra'avad seems to be rejecting the necessity altogether.

Ra'avad, by the way, was Gadol HaDor. Rambam was some upstart, and Ra'avad did Rambam a great honor by writing a scathing running commentary to the Mishne Torah. He's "bigger" than the Chafetz Chaim by dint of being a Rishon, although some people count the GRA as a Rishon.