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#1 Snag

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 10:24 AM

since this topic comes up often on h.com, and i just found a shortlist of some sources that made a while back, and when i need it i'm no longer going to be able to find it, i decided to post it here lma'an ya'amod yomim rabim:

the gemara in kiddushin (31a) and shabbos (118b) mentions not walking four cubits with one's head uncovered, however it seems to be a middas chassidus, not an issur. this s pointed out in tashbetz kattan (547), orchos chaim (48) and kolbo (11). in the maharshal's responsa (72) he further points out that only going four cubits is mentioned, which would seem to indicate that for less than this distance there is not even a middas chassidus. he further suggests that within a house (where one's head is not exposed to the sky) it is completely permissible to keep one's head uncovered, he concludes, however, that people have already become accustomed to being stringent in this regard, and we cannot be lenient in front of them.

the bach (oc 2) also surmises from the tur that while remaining stationary or walking less than four cubits there is no need for one to cover one's head, however, it seems from the rambam (dei'os 5:6 and moreh nevuchim 3:52) and rabbeinu yonah (sefer hayir'ah) that even within a house and less than four cubits one should be stringent.

rav shlomo kluger (ho'elef l'cho shlomo oc 3) says that having one's entire head uncovered is prohibited, however it is permitted to have a portion thereof uncovered, and this is what the abovementioned gemoros are referencing, that middas chassidus is to cover the entire head.



in maseches sofrim (14:15) there is a disagreement whether or not it is permitted to say the Name of Hashem when one's head is uncovered. rabbeinu yeruchom (nesiv 16) rules that it is indeed prohibited, but the t'rumas hadeshen (p'sokim 203) is lenient, adding that middas chassidus is to be careful with this.

the rambam (t'fillo 5:5) and the tur (oc 8) rule that one should not pray with his head uncovered, and the shulchon oruch (oc 91:3) adds that one should not even enter a synagogue with one's head uncovered. the maharshal cited above seems to understand this prohibition to be applicable only to the Names of Hashem recited during prayer or blessings, as opposed to those mentioned in k'ri'as sh'ma and the like. he also brings a proof that it is permitted to pray with one's head uncovered from vayikro rabbo (27:6), however in responsa sh'vus yaakov (III:5) he refutes this proof, as do the taz (oc 8) and mogen avrohom (oc 2). the sh'vus yaakov further suggests that the prohibition of the shulchon oruch is only to enter a synagogue with one;s head uncovered, however, after entering, one may uncover one's head.

the gro (oc 8) infers from the beis yosef that there is a prohibition to have one's head uncovered, however, the gro himself disagrees and rules that to refrain from walking four cubits without a head covering is a middas chassidus for tz'nu'im, and to cover one's head for prayer and while in a synagogue and while before great people is a proper custom for all people, but still not an actual din. this is also evident in sefer hamanhig (45. see also 49 v'tzorich iyun), but in responsa tzemach tzedek [the latter] (piskei dinim oc 2) he disagrees with the gro and rules that it is a mitzvah to cover one's head always.

the taz (oc 8:3 and 61:1) and mahari bruno (34) say that in our times it is forbidden to pray without a head covering because of chukos hagoy.

see also igros moshe ocI:1, tzitz eliezer IV:8, V:6, and XII:13, and yabi'a omer VI eh 15.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#2 cynic

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 10:29 AM

We've come so far.
From a minhag, to a nice thing, to a din, to a "you also have to wear a hat when you throw out the garbage."

I think this is what gets people.

#3 moe says

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 01:31 PM

thanks for the list, I actually wanted to post that gr'a the other day, but was lazy about finding it.

also iir there is a b'ach which talks about wearing two head coverings for davening, which forms the basis of the yeshivish garb...

I think that would be relevant to a lot of the pro-liberal viewpoints (read anti-yeshivish hate spam) that are voiced on h.
יושב בשמים ישחק השׁם ילעג למו

#4 LAGoff

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 12:50 AM

We've come so far.
From a minhag, to a nice thing, to a din, to a "you also have to wear a hat when you throw out the garbage."

I think this is what gets people.



I think the custom to wear a head covering out of respect to G-d was universal among many peoples/religions?
I think that was nice because many people were united- perhaps unconsciously.
It's like the belief in the soul/afterlife: It's not a din to believe it, but it's nice that so many peoples/religions do.

I think headcoverings in America stopped around the 60's- around the same time that Time magazine said, Is G-d is Dead(and hence belief in the soul/afterlife). Thank -od for baseball caps!

#5 krumlikeapretzel

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 01:18 AM

It's like the belief in the soul/afterlife: It's not a din to believe it, but it's nice that so many peoples/religions do.

Fascinating.
GOD'S IN HIS HEAVEN. ALL'S RIGHT WITH THE WORLD.

#6 rachel b.

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:52 AM

And when you sleep!

(Do you guys wear a kippah when you sleep?)

#7 warren

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:55 AM

(Do you guys wear a kippah when you sleep?)

no
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#8 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:58 AM

And when you sleep!

(Do you guys wear a kippah when you sleep?)

Of course!!! What do you think we are??? :angry:
[/flirting]

#9 krumlikeapretzel

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 05:13 PM

Of course!!! What do you think we are??? :angry:

How does it stay on?
Do you also wear a hat?
On Shabbos, do you have a shabbos sleep hat?
Does sleeping with a yarmulke result in kosher dreams?
How can women have the same experience?
GOD'S IN HIS HEAVEN. ALL'S RIGHT WITH THE WORLD.

#10 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 05:49 PM

How does it stay on?
Do you also wear a hat?
On Shabbos, do you have a shabbos sleep hat?
Does sleeping with a yarmulke result in kosher dreams?
How can women have the same experience?

It just does if its big enough, but some people use the white na nach ones for extra security...
No, but maybe I should...
Unfortunately not...
You can sleep in your sheital....
[/flirting]

#11 warren

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:38 PM

Of course!!! What do you think we are??? :angry:

Just curious, in which group do men wear head coverings when they sleep? And do I want to know why?
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#12 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:45 PM

Just curious, in which group do men wear head coverings when they sleep? And do I want to know why?

I don't think it's limited to a particular group....
[/flirting]

#13 Snag

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:37 PM

(Do you guys wear a kippah when you sleep?)

yes.

How does it stay on? it just does
Do you also wear a hat? no
On Shabbos, do you have a shabbos sleep hat? no
Does sleeping with a yarmulke result in kosher dreams? hell, no
How can women have the same experience? what are you, some kind of neo-maskil?



Just curious, in which group do men wear head coverings when they sleep? And do I want to know why?

in the tzemach tzedek's yeshiva, boys were expelled if their yarmulkes were not on their heads when the tt walked through the dorm at night, because being able to sleep wiuth an uncovered head was seen as evidence of a lack of yir'as shomayim.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#14 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:35 AM

....

#15 moe says

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:24 AM

You're from Baltimore, right?

But before we get into the sources and what they say, don't say, imply, require, suggest, and laud, and for whom and under what circumstances, let me ask you something. You know how normative practice among Ashkenazim is for bachurim not to cover their head with a tallit, it being ostentatious and yuhora since Chazal prescribe ittuf for talmidim chachamim and the married? So why are the Torah True bachurim enjoined to wear a hat when they daven or are called to the torah if a hat is equivalent to ittuf?


I'm from Jersey, but I now reside in Baltimore (since Feb.).... I also have no problem davening without a hat... I also own a hat... and wear it when I feel it is appropriate to do so. I do feel, though, that the anti-hat wearing sentiment expressed on h.com can, at times, be quite, well... enthusiastic.

And before we get into wether or not yeshivish people have contradictions in any number of different practices I thought it was fair to acknowledge the fact that some guy wasn't just sitting around one day trying to figure the next chumra to inflict klal yisrael with and thought..." a second head covering... perfect! I mean the kippah has just taken off, everyone thinks it's d'oraisa..." but there is a bach, and if you learn like he does, a gemara.

But to answer you, I think your question is a good question. I don't have an answer. I would consider the possibility that the minhag not to wear a tallis has its roots in financial considerations. And once accepted by gedolim of yesteryear wouldn't necessarily change with the financial climate in america. And in europe no bar mitzvah bachur would have dreamt of wearing a hat... maybe the little caps that you see brisker families wearing in yerushalayim (if you daven in zichron moshe)... it doesn't really matter.

my point is-I agree, the importance of these things is cultural not halachic, but it's not a fabrication either.


anyway thanks for adding the mekoros
יושב בשמים ישחק השׁם ילעג למו

#16 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:38 AM

....

#17 moe says

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:51 AM

ואין ספק דרצונם לומר דאף על פי שראשו מכוסה במצנפת קטנה אפילו הכי לא יברך בגילוי הראש מפריסת סודר שפורסים על הראש לצניעות לפי שכיסוי זה מכניע לב האדם ומביאו לידי כוונת הברכה וליראת שמים

I will translate for the sake of public debate, all errors are mine:
This is from the first bach you quoted which

says no such thing


There can be no doubt the they are referring to a case where although the head is covered with a small piece of fabric, nevertheless one shouldn't make a blessing with a head that is not covered by a proper sudar, which people spread over their heads for purposes of modesty, as this covering subjugates the heart of a man, and brings him to focus, and fear of heaven.
יושב בשמים ישחק השׁם ילעג למו

#18 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:57 AM

....

#19 moe says

moe says

    very tans

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:58 AM

a black hat is a sudar? and why is there no mention of needing a double head covering for berachot in siman 91?

In the ashkenazi lands during the last century a different form of head covering was preferred for modesty, and/or koved rosh...
יושב בשמים ישחק השׁם ילעג למו

#20 Guest_Melech_*

Guest_Melech_*
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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:59 AM

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