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Getting around Dam Besulim


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#1 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:25 PM

No. I'm confessing that I have learned some halacha, and the idea of "let's pretend you are bleeding from your uterus even though we know you aren't" isn't a particularly appealing way to start a marriage. It's weird and I don't really like it, but I guess I'll have to deal with it.


I think this deserves its own thread. This is not often talked about, I guess because its a one time thing. But I agree dam besulim is a strange halacha and really is an unfair and difficult way to start a marriage. And its one of those frustrating areas that makes me wonder what were those Rabbis thinking?! Especially if a couple is able to refrain from touching the whole relationship and wait until they are married, its like -- here you go, a couple of hours to do it all and than nothing. After this crazy physical thing which the woman (and often both) has never ever done before, they need to seperate and can't even finish their wedding night in the same bed. Not even a hug to make sure she is ok. Then comes sheva brachos where you basically have 24/7 do be with one another and few other people besides for the evening parties. And again, not even a hug is allowed. By the time the woman finally makes it to the mikveh, its often 3 weeks or more into marriage, at which point, the couple has probably fought, had certain fairy-tale marriage exepctations dashed, and had normal beginning-of-marriage tension (presumably added by the fact they couldn't touch). That initial 'we just want to be in each other's arms' is just not as strong and what a shame that the couple couldn't be together for longer during the first days and weeks of their new union.

I know people push off consumating the marriage until a few days go by which at least gives them more time. But I'm sure thats not easy for the guy and halachically its not considered good. Plus if the girls period suddenly shows up, they are in trouble.

I heard from someone else that she went to a doctor before her wedding and got her hymen broken. i think thats just brilliant. Sure, not an eidel thing which anyone would encourage and supposedly it changes the kesuba or something but is it halachically really assur? I think it would give the new couple such a wonderful start to their marraige -- a honeymoon where they can physically be with one another as they please insted of spending the days in seperate beds just longing for one another.
God, grant us the...
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Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
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#2 Savannah

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:30 PM

http://www.yoatzot.o...ion.php?id=2702
http://www.yoatzot.o...ion.php?id=8913

They recommend not getting a hymenectomy. But IMO you could take it on as a DIY project.

#3 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:34 PM

http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=2702
http://www.yoatzot.o...ion.php?id=8913

They recommend not getting a hymenectomy. But IMO you could take it on a DIY project.

But apparently, they don't say its not allowed.

Gee, I wish I had read this when was engaged.
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#4 U Tarzan me Jane

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:40 PM

According to halacha, if she has never had sex she is still a virgin. Blood or no blood, she still has to separate from her husband. Breaking her hyman intentionally does not change her virgin status. And not all virgins bleed.

This is what I learned in kallah classes.

Doing something like that is not fooling anyone, and definitely requires a shaila.
"Common things happen commonly, uncommon things don't. So when you hear hoofbeats, think horses , not zebras."

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#5 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:44 PM

According to halacha, if she has never had sex she is still a virgin. Blood or no blood, she still has to separate from her husband. Breaking her hyman intentionally does not change her virgin status. And not all virgins bleed.

This is what I learned in kallah classes.

Doing something like that is not fooling anyone, and definitely requires a shaila.


A lot of the THM situations involve 'getting around' halachos, especially one thats a 'fence on a fence'. The first yoatzot question (and they are usually pretty makpid) states: "If a physician can state that the hymen was completely removed by surgery or due to injury, a woman does not have to keep the rules of dam betulim." I dont see why a fully broken hymen would not change her status as a virgin.
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#6 Savannah

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:58 PM

http://www.yoatzot.o...ion.php?id=8423 :rofl:

#7 Elana

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:03 PM

what's so funny about that?

#8 Savannah

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:08 PM

what's so funny about that?

It's their recommendation to keep harchakot in public in order to keep her "status" a secret. What nonsense. If you keep harchakot people will assume the couple had sex and if they don't keep harchakot they'll assume the couple didn't have sex. Either assumption is just as likely to be right as wrong, so why bother pretending?

#9 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:24 PM

It's their recommendation to keep harchakot in public in order to keep her "status" a secret. What nonsense. If you keep harchakot people will assume the couple had sex and if they don't keep harchakot they'll assume the couple didn't have sex. Either assumption is just as likely to be right as wrong, so why bother pretending?

I think it would be fun. Almost a game. Let's not pass things to each other just to mix people up. Then when one of the guests sees them holidng hands on their way out, let them raise their eyebrows up further!
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#10 Nechama

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:38 PM

I'm not one of those people who normally says couples should "keep harchakot in public so no ones knows."
Except for Chosson'n'Kallah. To me it seems very un-tznua for them to be touching in public during sheva brachos week.
If I have interesting things on the walls, no one will notice how dirty the floors are - right?

#11 Elana

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:40 PM

It's their recommendation to keep harchakot in public in order to keep her "status" a secret. What nonsense. If you keep harchakot people will assume the couple had sex and if they don't keep harchakot they'll assume the couple didn't have sex. Either assumption is just as likely to be right as wrong, so why bother pretending?


methinks in that context they weren't talking about having or not having sex on the wedding night, but assuming there was sex. the status that's supposed to be kept a secret is whether she had sex before this marriage or not (unless she is a divorcee or a widow)

#12 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:46 PM

I'm not one of those people who normally says couples should "keep harchakot in public so no ones knows."
Except for Chosson'n'Kallah. To me it seems very un-tznua for them to be touching in public during sheva brachos week.

what about passing things?
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#13 Savannah

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:48 PM

I think it would be fun. Almost a game. Let's not pass things to each other just to mix people up. Then when one of the guests sees them holidng hands on their way out, let them raise their eyebrows up further!

Naughty!

I'm not one of those people who normally says couples should "keep harchakot in public so no ones knows."
Except for Chosson'n'Kallah. To me it seems very un-tznua for them to be touching in public during sheva brachos week.

Harchakot =/= touching

methinks in that context they weren't talking about having or not having sex on the wedding night, but assuming there was sex. the status that's supposed to be kept a secret is whether she had sex before this marriage or not (unless she is a divorcee or a widow)

How would anybody know what went on in their bedroom? If you don't know a couple, the general assumption is harchakot = sex, no harchakot = no sex. I don't think a stranger's going to assume no harchakot = sex w/non-virgin.

#14 Nechama

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:56 PM

what about passing things?

I think its normal when the hachrachot are new rules to mess up with passing. Even when they are old rules people forget about passing.
But if they where constantly passing stuff all evening? I'd think that to be weird.
If I have interesting things on the walls, no one will notice how dirty the floors are - right?

#15 Savannah

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:59 PM

I think its normal when the hachrachot are new rules to mess up with passing. Even when they are old rules people forget about passing.

Actually, I've found that most newlyweds are so supercareful and superconscious of it. More careful than people who've been married for a while.

#16 Shaina

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:01 PM

I think it's weird that people notice (and intentionally focus on) whether or not a couple at their sheva brachos are touching/passing.
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#17 Rentsy

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:08 PM

Basically, from what I've seen, there's no way to get around it short of going to mikveh and having sex before you get married.

Yoatzot :rofl:

To be shomer negia is truly the most difficult test there is in life for a single man.

Poor guy :rofl:
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#18 Savannah

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:10 PM

I think it's weird that people notice (and intentionally focus on) whether or not a couple at their sheva brachos are touching/passing.

Everybody's a yenta. :p

#19 Moshi

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:14 PM

Basically, from what I've seen, there's no way to get around it short of going to mikveh and having sex before you get married.



The Yoatzot link above clearly states that even if the woman is betulah, but her [old yiddish name] is gone, then they "get around" this dam betulim issue.


On the other hand, wouldn't we still be concerned about the "blood of excitement"?
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#20 Elana

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:20 PM

How would anybody know what went on in their bedroom? If you don't know a couple, the general assumption is harchakot = sex, no harchakot = no sex. I don't think a stranger's going to assume no harchakot = sex w/non-virgin.


actually, i'm pretty sure that the general assumption for chosson and kallah is harchakos = sex with a besulah




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