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Standards for legitimacy of dreams


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#1 MendelReuvain

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 08:39 AM

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone knew what the Gemara says about understanding whether a dream is legitimate or not...?

Thank you.

#2 warren

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 08:53 AM

and I'm wondering what an illegitimate dream could mean
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If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

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#3 MendelReuvain

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 09:51 AM

and I'm wondering what an illegitimate dream could mean


And I'm wondering why you're thinking you're smart for missing the point...? :(

#4 warren

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 10:02 AM

And I'm wondering why you're thinking you're smart for missing the point...? :(

I did not claim that my incomprehension is due to intelligence.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#5 MendelReuvain

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 10:05 AM

I did not claim that my incomprehension is due to intelligence.


Sorry then Warren for assuming sarcasm. I am wondering what the standards are for distinguishing between dreams that are only of one's mind and dreams that may have more meaning.

#6 warren

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 03:09 PM

Sorry then Warren for assuming sarcasm. I am wondering what the standards are for distinguishing between dreams that are only of one's mind and dreams that may have more meaning.

Dreams and their interpretation are discussed on Berachot 55a and the next few pages. I don't know if you'll find an answer to your question there. Shmuel said that his good dreams were true and his bad dreams were false, the main opposing view is that dreams aren't important, it's how they're interpreted (and examples are given of bad dreams being interpreted favorably). But then there are lists of how to interpret things one sees. And there's also the view that "a man is shown in a dream only what is suggested by his own thoughts".

You can find links to an English translation in this post and the next one.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#7 SimpleTruth

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:10 PM

i am very in touch with my dreams.

I have seen a few things come true and a few others were there to give me an understanding of something

this is the basics: all good dreams are from God, all bad dreams are from evil and do not pay any attention to them, they will not come true. All good dreams since they are from God it means it will also come true and/or it serves as reassurance sometimes or a teaching. there is a third type, which is just from your mind, whatever you have stored in your mind or your beliefs, they manifest themselves in your dream also, it is tricky to distinguish sometimes, but you yourself should be able to

God can show you a future event sometimes and it is always good, He never scares you by a bad event. At times though, it may be something you already did, but God sends you reassurance that it was the right thing etc

I think when a dream is from God you know it is significant, and it is not a product of your mind. Dreams from God are usually clear and usually you feel very good in them. I had many dreams which I consider good, but I only once had such an amazing dream, it was the most peaceful and amazing feeling, and that event came true shortly after

Someone can help you interpret your dream if they are good, and especially if they know you, but you should be the best person to interpret your dream or decide if what the interpreter is saying feels true to you, so they can guide you a little, but you yourself know best, also do not worry becuase if you have seen a dream, even if you do not understand it now, you will understand it later, God will make things happen even if you do not do anything about them, and then you will look back at your dream and understand the current event when you put it together with your past dream

i hope i made sense

#8 brianna

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:36 PM

SimpleTruth, I think you're forgetting that only 1/60th of a dream means anything. The rest is just our own minds.
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#9 MendelReuvain

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:42 PM

i am very in touch with my dreams.

I have seen a few things come true and a few others were there to give me an understanding of something

this is the basics: all good dreams are from God, all bad dreams are from evil and do not pay any attention to them, they will not come true. All good dreams since they are from God it means it will also come true and/or it serves as reassurance sometimes or a teaching. there is a third type, which is just from your mind, whatever you have stored in your mind or your beliefs, they manifest themselves in your dream also, it is tricky to distinguish sometimes, but you yourself should be able to

God can show you a future event sometimes and it is always good, He never scares you by a bad event. At times though, it may be something you already did, but God sends you reassurance that it was the right thing etc

I think when a dream is from God you know it is significant, and it is not a product of your mind. Dreams from God are usually clear and usually you feel very good in them. I had many dreams which I consider good, but I only once had such an amazing dream, it was the most peaceful and amazing feeling, and that event came true shortly after

Someone can help you interpret your dream if they are good, and especially if they know you, but you should be the best person to interpret your dream or decide if what the interpreter is saying feels true to you, so they can guide you a little, but you yourself know best, also do not worry becuase if you have seen a dream, even if you do not understand it now, you will understand it later, God will make things happen even if you do not do anything about them, and then you will look back at your dream and understand the current event when you put it together with your past dream

i hope i made sense


Hey ST, I think it makes sense. And it's interesting to hear how you look at dreams. I think you're right that usually the meaning of the dream is clearest to the dreamer as opposed to trying to use some one size fits all method of interpretation.

I've had a handful of dreams that have felt real as opposed to cartoon-like and I do pay attention to those. But as for dreams in particular that might relate to Judaism more directly I am still curious what the standards are for knowing if they come from above or not.

#10 SimpleTruth

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:44 PM

SimpleTruth, I think you're forgetting that only 1/60th of a dream means anything. The rest is just our own minds.


maybe, I do not pay attention to all the details, but is the general message there, for example, I may dream I am meeting my husband in an airport, when in fact i will simply meet him, but not in an airport, so not all the details about the dream are true (which may be why they say 1/60), but that is irrelevant, and as the dreamer should be able to tell the general intended meaning, the main subject of the dream

sometimes it is about how you feel about a dream, not so much what you see

#11 SimpleTruth

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:50 PM

Hey ST, I think it makes sense. And it's interesting to hear how you look at dreams. I think you're right that usually the meaning of the dream is clearest to the dreamer as opposed to trying to use some one size fits all method of interpretation.

I've had a handful of dreams that have felt real as opposed to cartoon-like and I do pay attention to those. But as for dreams in particular that might relate to Judaism more directly I am still curious what the standards are for knowing if they come from above or not.


yes I suppose I cant tell you about Judaism, but I believe the general spirit should be the same

with regards to Judaism, I can suggest you to use it as a point guide, for example, if you see a rock, see what usually a rock represents in Judaism, if it represents for example faith, then you can look at your dream and relate the rock to faith, or if you see for example yourself leaning on a pillar, see what Judaism usually means when uses the word pillar, if for example a pillar means Jewish religion, then in your dream you can look at the pillar as your Jewish religion

p.s. sorry I see what you meant, you need an explanation of what the Jewish teachings say, nevermind the above

#12 MendelReuvain

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:58 PM

yes I suppose I cant tell you about Judaism, but I believe the general spirit should be the same

with regards to Judaism, I can suggest you to use it as a point guide, for example, if you see a rock, see what usually a rock represents in Judaism, if it represents for example faith, then you can look at your dream and relate the rock to faith, or if you see for example yourself leaning on a pillar, see what Judaism usually means when uses the word pillar, if for example a pillar means Jewish religion, then in your dream you can look at the pillar as your Jewish religion


Yeah I've been thinking along the same lines but it only brings me so far... The two 'symbols' I still haven't quite pieced together are the place of apprenticeship in Judaism and the relevance of the '' grapheme.

#13 MendelReuvain

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 07:32 PM

Dreams and their interpretation are discussed on Berachot 55a and the next few pages. I don't know if you'll find an answer to your question there. Shmuel said that his good dreams were true and his bad dreams were false, the main opposing view is that dreams aren't important, it's how they're interpreted (and examples are given of bad dreams being interpreted favorably). But then there are lists of how to interpret things one sees. And there's also the view that "a man is shown in a dream only what is suggested by his own thoughts".

You can find links to an English translation in this post and the next one.


Oh thanks Warren, nice find.

edit:
Hrmmm... well it's interesting stuff, (although the intercourse interpretations were a bit bizarre). I guess they just laid out all the various contexts that one may be entering into in pursuit of the question.

Still not sure if there are standards for knowing if the dream is speaking falsely or not?

#14 Diogenes The Cynic

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 01:34 AM

SimpleTruth, I think you're forgetting that only 1/60th of a dream means anything. The rest is just our own minds.

Not even that.

The gemara relates an instance when someone was told he would dream of the Romans torturing him. Thats what happened.

It was explained to that person that dreams are mostly our thoughts of what happened during the day.
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#15 Rentsy

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 01:38 AM

Original Poster, Rav Aviner has an excellent and thorough discussion of your topic.
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#16 MendelReuvain

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 12:56 PM

Original Poster, Rav Aviner has an excellent and thorough discussion of your topic.


Thanks for the link Rentsy.

#17 Snag

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:51 PM

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone knew what the Gemara says about understanding whether a dream is legitimate or not...?

Thank you.

i don't know about the gemara, but rabbi menashe b. yisrael has a dissertation on dreams, both in the conciliator and in nishmas chaim, where he divides them into six categories, three "true" and three "false". i'll b"n try to post it tomorrow.
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#18 Red Hare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:38 PM

Didn't any of you read Rabbi Shmuley's book on dreams? Dreams don't mean anything.
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#19 TimeRebbe

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:53 PM

Dreams can sometimes have an important meaning - and be a message from Above. Dreams can also be utterly insignificant, being a product of our subconscious imagination.

True story: When my parents were dating, my mother had a dream where she was in shul, and looking over the mechitza she saw two small children playing next to my father. She agreed to marry him shortly after.

Another time, my mother had a very vivid dream that the police knocked on her front door and told her that her mother was in the hospital. That very morning, during the shabbos seudah, the police knocked on her door, informing her that her mother was in the hospital (her aunt, knowing my mother wouldnt answer the phone on shabbos asked the police to inform her).

I think the key is how vivid - and how much you remember - of the dream. If you can still remember it a few days later, it probably holds some importance. If it fades right away, it probably doesnt.
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#20 israeli4ever

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:05 PM

Dreams can sometimes have an important meaning - and be a message from Above. Dreams can also be utterly insignificant, being a product of our subconscious imagination.

True story: When my parents were dating, my mother had a dream where she was in shul, and looking over the mechitza she saw two small children playing next to my father. She agreed to marry him shortly after
.....


that one is kind of self-fulfilling.....
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