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#1 Michelle

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 06:50 PM

Greetings and sorry for controversial first post.


I have read that parts of the Talmud say sex with a girl under three is ok as when she is over three years she automatically becomes 'virgin' again.

Please enlighten me if this is true or some anti jewish propaganda.

#2 lyric

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 06:58 PM

Anyone heard of this? I haven't.
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#3 Dan

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 07:00 PM

Greetings and sorry for controversial first post.


I have read that parts of the Talmud say sex with a girl under three is ok as when she is over three years she automatically becomes 'virgin' again.

Please enlighten me if this is true or some anti jewish propaganda.

The Talmud says that she becomes a virgin again. What the Talmud calls "OK" is her (or his, depends which specific page in Talmud) halachic status in regards to certain specific laws. There is no encouragement of such a thing in the Talmud.
כלל זה יהא נקוט בידך: מי שאינו רואה את המקום [=ה'] בכל מקום, אינו רואה בשום מקום
איפה נמצא אלוקים? בכל מקום שנותנים לו להיכנס
-Kotzker

נישט אלעס וואס מען טראכט דארף מען זאגען, נישט אלעס וואס מען זאגט דארף מען שרייבען, נישט אלעס וואס מען שרייבט דארף מען דרוקען און נישט אלעס וואס מען דרוקט דארף מען ליינען!
-R' Salanter

יש בן חורין שרוחו רוח של עבד, ויש עבד שרוחו מלאה חירות; הנאמן לעצמיותו בן חורין הוא, ומי שכל חייו הם רק במה שטוב ויפה בעיני אחרים הוא עבד
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#4 brianna

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:08 PM

I have read that parts of the Talmud say sex with a girl under three is ok as when she is over three years she automatically becomes 'virgin' again.

Please enlighten me if this is true or some anti jewish propaganda.

That is anti-Jewish propaganda. The Talmud does not say or even imply anywhere that it is okay to have sex with a three year old. What it does say is that sex with a girl who has not yet reached puberty does not remove her virginity. This is to make sure that the girl will not be considered "stained" by her abuse and be entitled to a lower dowry.

http://www.angelfire...lmud/three.html

I hope you find that web page helpful - it shows the actual Talmud text and gives a more thorough explanation than I did.
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#5 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:24 PM

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#6 Rentsy

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 11:14 PM

[is not being helpful]
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#7 brianna

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:18 AM

*edited
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#8 lyric

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 02:17 AM

I am relieved to hear that it isn't suggested as an idea. *shudderz*
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#9 Pinchas

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 10:20 AM

The discussion just came up in Daf Yomi.

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#10 Snag

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 02:30 PM

a girl who has not yet reached puberty

a girl under three. from three on, even prepuberty, her virginity is, indeed, removed.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

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#11 Michelle

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 05:44 AM

Thanks for the info people.
I did not want to believe this but looking into other faiths such as Islam, many of the things said of Islam are actually true.

#12 Short

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 01:14 PM

Does current medical knowledge support this position, that indeed, the hymen can repair itself in a girl younger than three?
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#13 brianna

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 01:56 PM

Does current medical knowledge support this position, that indeed, the hymen can repair itself in a girl younger than three?

Halachic virginity is not simply based on hymen status.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#14 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 02:12 PM

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#15 brianna

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:03 PM

when chazal say the betulim return, do they mean in literally, or do they mean that the girl has the halachic status of as if her betulim are intact?

I think of the word "betulim" to mean "halachic virginity", not the physical hymen.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#16 Snag

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:08 PM

when chazal say the betulim return, do they mean in literally, or do they mean that the girl has the halachic status of as if her betulim are intact?

I think of the word "betulim" to mean "halachic virginity", not the physical hymen.

except that this is touted by the rishonim as an instance of where halacha affects reality, for if beis din declares a leap year, her besulim would return, and if not, not.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#17 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:09 PM

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#18 Snag

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:17 PM

Indeed. And that's why it would seem that we're talking physical reality rather than legal status as if.

exactly. :)

although it's important to note, too, that the chachomim said that a bogeres (12.5 years of age) loses her besulim, and i think it's pretty clear that this can't be referring to the hymen as a whole, so there is perhaps room for debate on what exactly chazal understood the physical manifestation of virginity to be...
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#19 brianna

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:19 PM

So they actually believed that the hymen would grow back?
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#20 warren

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 04:42 PM

So they actually believed that the hymen would grow back?

I also wonder if they thought that seating a woman over a barrel of wine and smelling her breath could determine if she was a virgin. http://jewishworker....-is-virgin.html
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