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The Rambam's Yad/Mishneh Torah


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#21 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 11:14 AM

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#22 Yehudi

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 11:57 AM

I have no idea.

If I were systematically study a section of the Yad, I'd likely start with the R. Touger annotated translations

http://www.milechai....xt1/Rambam.html


Almost all of it is available online (besides Tahara).

http://www.chabad.or...shneh-Torah.htm

Incidentally, since the "Mishnah Torah yomit" was mentioned earlier in the thread, they just started a new 3 chapter a day cycle yesterday...
One Nation - One Land - One Torah


#23 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 12:25 PM

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#24 Snag

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 07:30 PM

What do Lubavitchers do?

they just study the text of the rambam, not as a halachic tool, but as a method of gaining broad yedios in judaism. in fact, the fear that common folk studying the rambam would err in ruling like him even where he is alone among the poskim was one of the objections raised by those opposed to the rebbe mhm shlita's innovation.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#25 bennoach31

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:23 PM

I'm curious, as a Ben Noach, don't you find some of the views expressed towards gentiles and even towards Ben Noach troubling? I mean, technically, if I see you dying on Shabbat, I'm not allowed to do anything to save your life which might cause me to violate the Sabbath, at least in Rambam's opinion. Doesn't that bother you? It bother's me quite a bit.


Shalom Snag. There's a lot I can say on this, but I would rather you start with the source (or sources) for what you say, before I start writing an essay to cover the whole subject. I have read the sources, for instance Hilkhoth Rotseach w'Shemirath Nephesh 4:10-12 (Vilna). This does not bother me, and I think understand why these laws exist (although I don't know about you feel about the obligation set forth in halakhah 10; such a person would have more reason to fear than a goy).

There are a lot of other places I have seen where differing treatment is given to Jews and non-Jews (just as differing treatment is given to men and women, Torah scholars and ordinary Jews). What you should know is that the Mishneh Torah does not always refer to all non-Jews in the world in the same way when they are mentioned. Most of the time, the kind of gentiles being referred to are idolaters. A distinction is drawn between them and those gentiles who observe the Sheva Mitswoth B'nei Noach (Hilkhoth Melakhim uMilchomatheihem ch. 9 - 10). Better treatment is given to a Ger Toshav, but that is only in Erets Yisrael, and only when the Yovel is in force. And I understand the reason behind that as well. Actually, Gil Student has a web site dedicated to correcting lies about the Talmud, which devotes spaces to explaining the Torah's view and treatment of non-Jews. It's worth the read.

I would have to write an essay to explain my position, and I don't have time right this moment. Perhaps I should because I have found that there are many Jews, who hold misunderstandings about non-Jews, just as Christians do of Jews. I even had one lady here a few years ago upset and almost frantic that I left Christianity to follow the Seven Laws. If anything, the things that I find offensive about Jewish attitudes towards B'nei Noach are the following:

1) Rabbis who advise truth-seeking gentiles to "go back to church" where there are more people
2) Rabbis who say that being a Noahide next to nothing in their estimation

I don't think most rabbis hold these opinions, but some of them do, and Noahides have come up against that from time to time. This is understandable as you have been under the iron heel of Edom for two millenia. You have been in survival mode, and very few gentiles want to befriend you. So what is there is to learn about Christians and Mohammadens who want to rob, rape, and murder you? After all that, it's no surprise that Jews have a bad view of non-Jews. And it's understandable that rabbis have had little reason in all this time to learn about B'nei Noach (even though your fathers were B'nei Noach). Times are changing, the exiles are returning to the Land, and gentiles are rubbing the dust from their eyes. There are, to be sure, rabbis and ordinary Jews out there, who have responded to the growing phenomenon in a very positive and helpful way. They are reaching out to gentiles who have abandoned the idolatry of their fathers, and who want to learn the truth of Torah, as it applies to them. See, I already started writing an essay without intending to, and I need to get to sleep. :)

Best if we start by your citing your sources, and we will go through them one by one. To be clear, I find nothing offensive as to the difference in treatment between Jews and non-Jews in some places, keeping in mind that the halakhah does not regard all non-Jews the same. The halakhah also draws a distinction between Jews (both diligently observant and occasional sinners) and Jewish kophrim - minim and apiqorsim. Jewish kophrim are regarded as even worse people than run-of-the-mill gentile idolaters; and the halakhah subjects minim and apiqorsim to colder and harsher treatment than goyim. That has to be included in a discussion of this kind.

Shalom :)
The views of this poster are not necessarily the views of HaShem (even if he brings forth what in his mind looks to be halakhah miSinai)

#26 MadMaxInJerusalem

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 03:17 AM

How does one study the Mishne Torah? What's the recommended way? Do you just learn it as is with just the commentaries on the page, do you go back to the underlying Gemara, do you compare it to the Tur and SA? Do you go forward to practical halacha?


There are only two reliable editions of the Mishneh Torah, the one available from Mechon Mamre משנה תורה מנוקד or the single volume Maqbili Edition which is also mnukad and has the Haskamot of R. Ovadia Yosef, R. Mordachai Eliyahu, Chief Rabbi Amar and the Chief Rabbi of Kfar Chabad.

It should first be learned without any commentaries and read through multiple times - you have to read the entire work multiple times because it self references allot. Generally the MT says something once and doesn't repeat itself.

#27 MadMaxInJerusalem

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 03:25 AM

Best if we start by your citing your sources, and we will go through them one by one.

Shalom :)


This would be as good a place to start as any: A Lonely Champion of Tolerance R. Menachem ha-Meiri's Attitude Towards Non-Jews

I also just ran across this which apparently has the opposite view although I haven't gotten to read it yet:

http://michaelmakovi...ning-meiri.html

#28 Snag

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 12:14 PM

Shalom Snag.

shalom uvracha, bennoach31. but for the sake of clarity, you were replying to madmax. :)
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain




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